New vs Used?

[motorbiking]

I'm looking for a comfortable, well spec'd sporty/luxury-ish car, to do about 70-150 miles 3 days a week avg. Allowing for the fuel economy (e.g. compare it with say an A7 TDI - Its about 15-20k cheaper like for like and my fuel cost differences will only be about 2-2.5k a year. If the Tesla holds up, over say about 6 years its evens-ish.

 

[DaveHerns]

Tesla cheaper than an Audi?

 

[motorbiking]

No sorry, a comparable A7 is about 15-20k cheaper. Assuming I'll do about 12-15k miles a year and the A7 will avg about 38mg @ £6 per gallon. There is another £2K per year for comparison, I'd plan owning it 4-8 years. Servicing, insurance etc is all similar.

e.g. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201806137442337 vs https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201804125477478

and then, something like this https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201806287914806 starts to look very attractive.

 

[DaveHerns]

The choice there depends on how much you want to shell out! I think your hopes of any of them performing above the market in the future would depend on keeping the mileage minimal and the car in superb condition. A lot of old cars that are worth lots now went through a " banger" phase when most owners got rid of them, eg Mk 1 and 2 Ford Escorts, Capris, Mk 2 Jags, Porsche 924s to name but a few.

 

[JohnD]

the value of old cars reaches a peak when prosperous older men reach the point when they can afford the car they had a poster of on the bedroom wall when they were 14.

The peak passes once this demographic hump starts to fall off the perch.

 

[motorbiking]

I’m not looking for a future classic. Just weighing up cost of ownership and trying to see where the sensible entry point is.

 

[Keithmac]

It all depends on how long the battery will last.

The battery is a considerable size (basically the floor of the car!), wonder how much a replacement would cost and what warranty you get on it?.

Suppose you have to weigh up if a 25% saving is worth the loss of a few years warranty?.

I do like the Teslas, to be fair they are the only realy viable (long range) electric car.

 

[motorbiking]

You get 8 years on the battery. By my calculations there are around 6,000 cells in the 16 packs that make up the battery. At today’s costs it would cost about £35k to replace. I suspect in 8 years it will be closer to £10k.

Tesla do have some IP on battery management which is enabling them to drive the cells harder both charging and using, without damage. The heating and cooling is quite clever.

 

[mointainwalker]

It doesn't concern the models you are considering, but it may be of interest because it concerns Tesla.

https://www.focus.de/auto/elektroauto/tesla-model-3-auseinandergenommen-ubs_id_9432099.html

This article summarises a report commissioned by the Swiss investment bank UBS, which involved a specialist team dismantling and then costing three electric cars : Tesla Model 3, BMW i3 and the Chevrolet Volt. Their conclusions were that the Tesla is technically superior to the other two, but that Tesla will lose $ 6 000 for every base model ( $ 35 000 ) sold, and on the top model variant ( $ 49 000 ) it will make a thin margin of 7%. This obviously explains why Tesla has not yet delivered any of the base models, and therefore why so many of those who put down $ 1 000 deposit a couple of years ago are becoming increasingly discontented and starting to cancel their orders. Obviously if enough do this it will both dent Tesla's ( already weak ) capital position and hit its reputation, which suffered rather a lot last week from Musk's unauthorised comment about taking the company private, followed by his tearful breakdown and stories of 120 hour weeks and only being able to sleep with powerful sleeping-pills.

 

[mointainwalker]

That magazine has followed up with a second report of UBS findings, this time concentrating on quality ( Model 3 2017 ).

https://www.focus.de/auto/elektroau...s-experten-vernichten-model-3_id_9463373.html

The conclusions are far from positive and - according to the authors -many of them are not things that can be corrected with time and experience, but require tooling and design improvements. One regular problem is poor paint quality , which, according to ex-Tesla workers - is due to an under-sized paint-shop and cars being pushed through before the previous coats have hardened, another is problems welding or gluing different metals/materials together.

They liken the car to an iPhone in so far as parts are not designed to be repaired - and in some cases physically cannot be removed - and said it could possibly be the first disposable car: one example given was that the battery pack is so difficult to access and secured with lots of hard-to-reach screws, that they could imagine accident write-offs happening for that, when actually the damage wouldn't justify it in a better-designed car.They also feel that the mediocre quality will lead to lots of warranty problems and so Tesla will have to invest in a lot ore service centres to deal with them.

If there is anything specific that you want to ask, I'll see if its in there, but as said this is a Model 3

 

[JohnD]

Elon Musk seems to be trying to push the company towards a cliff. Patience is wearing thin. They're burning money faster than investors will shovel it in. People who can see what's happening are jumping off the side of the ship.

"Tesla was stung by two senior departures on Friday, adding to the growing list of executives who have left the company and sending its shares down by as much as 10 per cent.

The electric car maker’s chief accounting officer, Dave Morton, announced he was resigning less than a month after arriving, citing the “level of public attention placed on the company”.

Gabrielle Toledano, human resources director, then told Bloomberg she would not return from a leave of absence. Her departure was confirmed by one person inside the company.

The announcements also came on Sarah O’Brien’s final day as head of communications at Tesla. She vacates one of the positions in the company with the highest turnover.

The departures point to the chaos inside the upper echelons of the electric car maker, which has shed more than two dozen executives over the past two years, and come exactly a month after chief executive Elon Musk wrote on Twitter that he had “funding secured” for an audacious bid to take the company private. The bid never materialised and was finally scrapped.

Elon’s actions are making it harder and harder to support Tesla as a company

The announcements also came hours after Mr Musk smoked marijuana — which is legal in California although prohibited at Tesla — during an internet interview."

https://www.ft.com/content/cac57b2a-b29b-11e8-99ca-68cf89602132

 

[mointainwalker]

When you add all the departures - especially the new chief accountant after just four weeks ! - to Musk's volatility and incredible self-belief and the fact that 25% of the stock ( $ 11 Bn ) is held by people shorting the business, then I think the medium/long-term risk is extremely high, especially since there would be no service or spares organisation on the ground if the company failed.

 

[securespark]

In my day (he says, tottering on his stick) ICE meant In Car Entertainment (and it was a Radio/ Cassette with Dolby and possibly APSS if you were lucky!).

 

[motorbiking]

So I'm toiling with the idea of something in between and waiting for a few years.. Even with the low demand for diesels and possible post Brexit issues on imported German cars. I'm struggling to get deals from dealers.. I'm thinking of a BMW 640D M Sport, Fairly quick, but still reasonable to fuel and running costs aren't stupid high. The first one is very highly spec'd including head up display and fat people seats, but its a bit footballer. The second doesn't have the seat upgrades or the HUD, but is a nicer colour..

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201807188574742

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201808289914328

 

[securespark]

Cool, Karman Hardon audio!

Not sure the comfort seats will be much help in the fight against the well-known BMW stiff ride and huge wheels/ skinny rims!

Purely from a practical POV, I'm not a fan of light interiors, they are a bugger to keep clean, but if you don't have grubby children, it may not be such an issue.

What happened to the good old days when the second numbers denoted the engine size? Should be a 630!!!