NIC board change

[securespark]

I saw an NIC board change today. Apart from terribly inaccurate labelling up, the cooker control unit was on the incomer. Despite the guy telling me that according to NIC rules all sockets up & down should be on an RCD, he backtracked and reckoned NIC rules also say that showers, cookers (even with s/o) and immersions do not need to be RCD protected.

Can someone who is NIC reg'd tell me if this is correct?

 

[Lectrician]

It's never that clear cut.

Is the cooker CCU nearer to the back door than another socket? Do they even have a back door? Is the kitchen on the tenth floor?

Showers do not require RCD protection, although most shower manufacturers do mention putting them on an RCD, and then go on to say the installation must comply to BS7671......

 

[securespark]

It's 6 feet from the back door.

My understanding of the regs is that all G/F sockets must be rcd protected unless labelled as unsuitable for supplying equipment for use outdoors, no?

 

[nozspark]

I went to a job after a CU change by a NIC (DI)spark and the schedule of tests was completely blank... WTF is going on!!

 

[dingbat]

The NICEIC do NOT have their own regulations, but do insist on strict compliance with BS 7671.

This erroneous complaint usually arises from hearsay, originated by a disgruntled spark who's been found wanting.

And the reason you only find poor work carried out by NICEIC members is because you will not (yet) have seen any identifying evidence from sparks registered with any other schemes. It is not right, of course, that they get away with it, but there are bad apples in every barrel - for example, most drivers have passed their test, but a huge proportion should not be allowed on public roads.

And, of course, you'll rarely see the good work because customers will generally continue to use whoever carried it out.

 

[Lectrician]

The regs state "any socket outlet that can reasonably be expected to be used to supply portable equipment outdoors rated at 32amp or less be protected by a 30mA RCD" - or words to that effect.

If there is a socket protected by an RCD nearer to the door than the cookers CCU then it is ok TBH.

This is why I don't install CCU's - I install 45amp DP switches

 

[festa]

Hmm good thread this one....
Never given thought to a cooker c.u with socket being RCD protected.
I always thought as long as all sockets downstairs were protected i was making things safe for the consumer....but i totally forgot about that cooker c.u (with socket) in the kitchen.
Hmmmm you learn something new every day!.
So if its common knowledge that cookers have slight earth leaks ( which can trigger RCD`s so most electricians don't place this circuit on an RCD) and the majority of cookers are sited in the kitchen,and 90% of the time the kitchen leads to outdoors why do manufacturers make cooker c.u`s with a socket on them?

I can understand why Lectrician only uses D.P switches now.

 

[RF Lighting]

If a CCU has a socket on it then we protect it with an RCD, even if there are more convenient sockets for external use.

You have to make stuff idiot proof, and think about the numpty who plugs a dodgy appliance it to a socket which trips the RCD, and rather than take the appliance out of service, hunts around and finds his appliance still works in the cooker socket.

You have to protect people from them selves.

I agree, 45A DP switches are the way forward.

 

[securespark]

There wasn't an RCD socket near the back door, but there was a weatherproof one outside connected to the rcd protected ring.

Does that mean the internal ones do not need rcd protection?

Shouldn't the non RCD sockets be labelled as unsuitable for equipment outdoors?

Anyone know what NIC guidance is on this matter?

 

[festa]

So in that case RF...

Your subjecting a cooker circuit to RCD protection and with leaky earth currents on these cookers do you not get false operation of the RCD?

I wouldn't have thought labels would be needed on any downstairs sockets for the only reason of that the particular installation had an outside (RCD protected socket) which is designated for equipment to be used outside.

 

[Spark123]

I suppose it is all down to the definition of "reasonably expected"? It may be looked upon that all downstairs sockets can be "reasonably expected" to be used to supply portable equipment outdoors.
At least the 17th edition looks as though it is going to go the full hog, all normal sockets on RCD protection which is probably a good thing.
Like RF says, sometimes you need to protect people from themselves.

 

[securespark]

What I'm getting at is what is the NIC's interpretation of the regs in this matter?

I've spoken to two different NIC sparks AND two different NIC helpline guys, and got different answers from them all.

Well confused!!

 

[Lectrician]

The NIC are happy that if a socket is provided for outside use (ie masterseal outdoors) then the sockets inside need not be protected......but we still do protect them.

It was brought up during my last inspection on a large warden controlled site of bungalows for the over 60. It was deemed that a 60yr old is unlikely to hoover her car, or mow the non existant lawn, and the inspector was happy with this - it was actually only a PIR, not an install, bt still the same.

They make a big issue of "risk assesments" and "working policies" in commercial environements. It would cost thousands to protect all sockets in a huge factory and warehouse if no RCD protection was in place....... hundreds of circuits etc. The NIC on this issue said a "working policy should be put into operation after a risk assessment". We provided RCD protected sockets outside in the areas where there was the largest risk.

 

[securespark]

Cheers, Lec.

 

[tamdu]

Hi guys this is my first post here but I have been lurking for a while listening to all the advice that has been available.I am a self employed spark working in central Scotland that has been disgusted by the quality of work by NIC of SELECT app sparks. I have been trading for four years and in my first year I joined Select as a non member (£300+) never heard a peep from them since. I now fill in IEE or Megger(as I have the software) certificates for every job I do. I was a QS for the last firm I worked for and have all the QUalifications to get approved but is it worth it when u see the standard of work that is out there.