No lintel above window

[johntool]

Hello all, I'm new to the site and this is my first question so please be gentle.
I'm decorating my living room and stripped all the disgusting wallpaper away to the plaster(I didn't put the wall paper up in the first place, it was already here) but when I stripped the wall paper from around the window the plaster all came away above to reveal the cavity between an internal lintel and the outer course of bricks. I'm wondering what my course of action should be.
It seems that there is no lintel holding the outer course of bricks up, just the window, which seems obvious as looking from outside, the mortar between the 3 layers of bricks above the window has all cracked.
I'm wondering whether I'm going to have to have a lintel installed to hold the outer layer of bricks up alongside the internal lintel or whether I have to have a large lintel installed to hold up both internal and outer courses of bricks. There is already a large concrete lintel holding the internal course up with what seems like flashing hanging down from the top edge of it as I can only see up the cavity 1 brick course up.
How would the window be fitted in the first place with no lintel holding up the bricks as the window is 2 metres wide.
I dont know whether to fill the cavity, repoint the outside cracked mortar and carry on with having the living room plastered or to have the lintel question sorted first.
The house was built in the 60's.
Any comments would be helpful

 

[hotrod]

Hi John. Can you post a picture of the window and the external brickwork above? Info on how to do this can be found here if you're not sure how to:-

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=99672

 

[and1c]

...

WHat are the dimensions of the window?/....

 

[Shytalkz]

...

This is a common form of construction for 60s houses: the timber door-window frame was used as a permanent support for the brickwork, with the insitu concrete lintel often being cast up against the back face of the brickwork ie the brickwork was used as permanent shuttering to the concrete (although not in your case, from your description). It can - and does - last for years like this. At least, until the windows rot, or pvcU replacements are installed, particularly if there is a long span between the mullions (uprights) in the window, in which case expect the brickwork to sag over the opening, leading to cracks in the bed joints and visual sloping of the brickwork coursing. PvcU is not load-bearing!

This kind of thing often gets picked up on surveys at house sale time; as you've found it, suggest you deal with it, particularly if you're intending to replace the windows at some stage. Answer is to install a steel angle (galvanised), bolted to the outer face of the concrete lintel - M12 chemfix bolts at nominal 450 centres starting 100 in from ends of the steel angle will usually suffice. If you've got a 50 or so cavity, use a 120x120x8RSA; if no cavity, use 125x75x8RSA, long leg bolted to the concrete beam. Either option sets the angle 25 or so back from face of brickwork to drape the lintel dpc over. Flange thickness will enable you to give the angle a bearing (100 is fine) onto the brickwork either end, within the depth of the bed joint and allow you to point up in front of it. If there isn't a cavity, it means hacking the back of the bricks to give room for the lintel and bolts.

Bricks might be salvagable, if not you'll have to think about whether to try and find a close match, or possibly put a soldier course in, in contrasting brick.

Small jobbing builder can do this in a day, say £300-400 plus VAT incl lintel/bricks/compo, depending where you live.

 

[johntool]

I've taken a couple of pictures to show what i was talking about. (Here's the links)

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/johnsmoker/lintelINSIDE.jpg

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/johnsmoker/lintelOUTSIDE.jpg

Window size is 206cm wide x 125cm height. There is a cavity of 3 cm between the concrete lintel and the window.
The "funny" thing is Shytalkz (i think) said it would be good to get it sorted now incase I wanted to have a PVC window installed as they're not loadbearing. PVC windows were already installed when I moved in, so the previous owners didn't bother with a lintel. Sods!!
Thanks for your advice though shytalkz.
Isn't nest building great?!!!

 

[hotrod]

Hi John, it appears from the outside photo that there isn't a supporting lintel on the external face.

It would be a good idea to get a lintel put in. You will need one at 2400mm for that span to ensure a 150mm end bearing either side.

It's not a big / complex job for a competent builder. Something like this Catnic CNZ96C or this Catnic CN49C would do depending on the above load. A decent builder will be able to guide you further. If you don't want to do this work now I wouldn't worry too much it doesn't look immediatley dangerous but it would get picked up on a survey when you come to sell the house.

Hope this helps.

 

[Shytalkz]

The two lintels suggested by Hotrod do work (assuming triangular loading pattern, the total load on your lintel will be about 2.3kN; safe loads on the Catnics are 10kN and 20kN respectively for the two quoted) although, personally, I prefer a mechancial connection with the existing concrete lintel. It is not unknown for separate lintels, particularly usd angle profiles, to sway laterally under wind load on the window, or opening and shutting of casements, as the window frame will be top-fixed to the lintel/brickwork over the opening. More of a problem on longer spans, obviously.

As Hotrod says, there is no immediate necessity to carry out the work.

Not necessarily a case of the previous owners tucking you up by the way, unless this defect was pointed out to them by the window installers and they declined the additional cost of having a lintel installed. I would have expected this to have been picked up at the time of the survey carried out for your purchase of the property - assuming that you had one, of course.

 

[kev25v6]

My kitchen window on my extension is just like yours. When i moved in the survey didnt mention any problem with it.

 

[Shytalkz]

...

Not every property without lintels and with replacement windows ends up with cracking to the brickwork above. However, if there are cracks and/or visible distortion to the brickwork, then it would be odds-on to get spotted by the surveyor. Even from a drive-by valuation survey

 

[fastneattrowel]

...

This is a common form of construction for 60s houses: the timber door-window frame was used as a permanent support for the brickwork, with the insitu concrete lintel often being cast up against the back face of the brickwork ie the brickwork was used as permanent shuttering to the concrete (although not in your case, from your description). It can - and does - last for years like this. At least, until the windows rot, or pvcU replacements are installed, particularly if there is a long span between the mullions (uprights) in the window, in which case expect the brickwork to sag over the opening, leading to cracks in the bed joints and visual sloping of the brickwork coursing. PvcU is not load-bearing!

This kind of thing often gets picked up on surveys at house sale time; as you've found it, suggest you deal with it, particularly if you're intending to replace the windows at some stage. Answer is to install a steel angle (galvanised), bolted to the outer face of the concrete lintel - M12 chemfix bolts at nominal 450 centres starting 100 in from ends of the steel angle will usually suffice. If you've got a 50 or so cavity, use a 120x120x8RSA; if no cavity, use 125x75x8RSA, long leg bolted to the concrete beam. Either option sets the angle 25 or so back from face of brickwork to drape the lintel dpc over. Flange thickness will enable you to give the angle a bearing (100 is fine) onto the brickwork either end, within the depth of the bed joint and allow you to point up in front of it. If there isn't a cavity, it means hacking the back of the bricks to give room for the lintel and bolts.

Bricks might be salvagable, if not you'll have to think about whether to try and find a close match, or possibly put a soldier course in, in contrasting brick.

Small jobbing builder can do this in a day, say £300-400 plus VAT incl lintel/bricks/compo, depending where you live.[/quote] lol at bolting a l shaped lintel to the back of a concrete lintel,where are you getting your ideas from some sort of comic diy book? just bed the steel lintel at least 150m either side and the brickwork will hold it in place,shy why you cant give a simple answer is beyond me rather than going into a long drawn out specifaction blah blah blah

 

[Shytalkz]

Because, Tracc'er Boi, the solution you suggest does not always work beyond the short-term, especially if there is an opening a short distance directly above, preventing the brickwork from arching, or there are very few wall ties (or none, or they're rusted through...) in the wall above the opening - not uncommon - and it's a long span.

I'm guessing you're probably one of those "I've always done it this way, so it's the right way, or cos it worked before, safe load tables what use are they?" kinda brickies, no? Hate to disappoint you, but that isn't always the case...and that's why things often fall down/crack/move, mainly due to something having been built or repaired in a half-arsed way.

Horses for courses: no doubt your brickying is shedloads better than I could ever manage and you can call up multiples of brick dims for Flemish or English bond off the top of your head, whereas I would have to do it with a calculator and a sketch; equally, I would wager that I'm somewhat better than you at a) discerning load paths b) understanding structural behaviour and c) designing structural elements - with economy and elegance to safely withstand the forces to which they are subjected, naturally

 

[fastneattrowel]

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have you not noticed there isnt a lintel there,apart from a few small cracks its been fine , now he wants to add a lintel and iam saying it does not have to be bolted ,actualy i have never heard of one bolting a steel to a concrete lintel, make sure you use a few strong boys and no there not wyatt earps live in lover boys they go on top of acros to under side of any brick work above you wanna take out , no doubt you can wyatt

 

[Shytalkz]

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Ahah, so you've never heard of that being done, so it's a load of pants, then?!

Uh duh, there is no lintel only to the outer leaf? Small cracks now, larger ones with time, as the pvcU continues to deflect with the constant application of the brickwork loading. That's the reality, but it doesn't mean that it needs doing urgently, nevertheless.

Crapnics/IGs will often work quite happily, but not all the time; bolted angle will work all the time, but can be an overly fussy solution, like for shorter spans and where things like arching and wall ties are not a problem. The point is, each situation needs looking at on its own merits and, if general advice is being given (erm, like in this situation...), then err on the cautious side.

Funnily enough, I do know what Strongboys are; I can even design temporary works using them, how about that ?

 

[Shytalkz]

Ok, trying not to be sarcastic: Crapnics aka Catnics, IG aka, err...IG. Proprietary lintels, in other words.

As for aka, that'll be also known as....

 

[Shytalkz]

It was his fault, sir, he started it