Notification Enquiries

[pdenni]

just a reply to sm1thson

Be careful when testing without the relevent qualifications, im not saying you dont know how to test just that your local authority has misled you as if you test it and give the certificate you couldnt sign it as you dont have part p or the proper 2391, so not to scare you but i heard of a bloke who signed certs without qualifications, he got caught and ended up with 8 years in prison, scary stuff.

 

[securespark]

I'm not certified, nor do I have 2391......Does that mean I'm up 5h creek too?

 

[Adam_151]

but i heard of a bloke who signed certs without qualifications, he got caught and ended up with 8 years in prison, scary stuff.

famous words though "I heard of" ,There is nothing which says you have to have 2391 or indeed any qual to sign certs, BS7671 says you should be competant (though if you weren't you'd be charged with something relating to the EAW regs, not BS7671 as thats not law)

If you weren't competant to issue certs, or misrepresented to someone you had 2391 when infact you didn't, you would probably be commiting an offence, signing certs without 2391 however, would not alone result in the same, and if you think differently I'd be very interested to hear which statute says so

 

[pdenni]

in one word yes.
You cant test and fill in certificates with no qualifications to back it up, as pony as the part p qualification is it does mean you can self cert certain works, even in a lot of cases these so called sparks dont know one end of a meter from another.Which is the frustrating thing

 

[pdenni]

ok adam

i take your point, but as i am aware part p superceeded the 7671 competant person phrase as 2 many people were apparantly competent and killling people, thats the whole idea of part p so they can regulate people even if they are terrible installers.
As for the cert thing theres no way you could submit a cert to building control without qualifications as you couldnt join nic or bs without them.
As they are all checked for authenticity of installer.

also part p only allows you to test new circuits in certain locations, you need 2391 to do full house tests, board changes and inspections

 

[securespark]

also part p only allows you to test new circuits in certain locations, you need 2391 to do full house tests, board changes and inspections

Surely not??????


Where does it say that??

 

[nozspark]

Pdenni,
Competency is not gained by being Part P approved, It can come by various routes, training, qualifications or even experience and knowledge. And so long as you can carry out the tests, you don't need any quals to fill out any cert!

Secure, I would say that your LABC should see you as being competent as you have the experience, knowledge, tools and equipment to do the job and test it. I think that you should try and get your boss to put this through his scheme (call it a perk of the job!!)

 

[Adam_151]

ok adam
part p superceeded the 7671 competant person phrase

BS7671 wasn't law to start with (and still isn't), and as part p didn't add anything to the law other than

P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

and a list of whats notifiable, then I can't see how anything as been 'superceeded'

as 2 many people were apparantly competent and killling people, thats the whole idea of part p so they can regulate people even if they are terrible installers.

If too many people were being killed by 'competant' electrical installers, then the amount of people being killed by 'competant' drivers must be a national crisis than, as its significantly greater in magnitude than those from electricity

As for the cert thing theres no way you could submit a cert to building control without qualifications as you couldnt join nic or bs without them.

That would be upto the LABC or scheme in question, you are aware I trust that only one scheme; Napit requires you to hold 2391, the rest are happy with 2381 and a sufficent understanding of testing demonstrated on the day.

As they are all checked for authenticity of installer.

I have no doubt that this is what is supposed to happen when a scheme insists on a qualification,

also part p only allows you to test new circuits in certain locations, you need 2391 to do full house tests, board changes and inspections

Part P does no such thing, there are no restrictions on who can do what (only what need to be notified), and certainly nothing on who can do periodics, as it only relates to electrical installation work. If you think differently, then I challenge you to tell me what statute says so...[/quote]

 

[dingbat]

... as i am aware part p superceeded the 7671 competant person phrase as 2 many people were apparantly competent and killling people, thats the whole idea of part p so they can regulate people even if they are terrible installers.
As for the cert thing theres no way you could submit a cert to building control without qualifications as you couldnt join nic or bs without them.
As they are all checked for authenticity of installer.

also part p only allows you to test new circuits in certain locations, you need 2391 to do full house tests, board changes and inspections

pdenni, you are confused.

Part P requires that 'Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installatons in order to protect persons operating maintaining or altering the installation from fire or injury'.

Competence is prescribed, not by BS 7671, nor by Part P, but by EAWR 1989 Reg 16. How you demonstrate the required 'technical knowledge or experience' is up to you, but there are no absolute requirements for any paper qualifications.

Holders of C & G 2391 are very often woefully short of the 'experience' requirement, so this alone is no guarantee of competence, but anybody who can demonstrate actual, as opposed to theoretical competence, may design, install, test and certify their work.

Part P is not there to regulate practitioners, but rather to regulate the work, just as all the other Building Regulations do. Local Authority Building Control have the right to enforce the regs how they see fit, within the guidelines. The only time an actual certificate is submitted to building control is if they request one and this would only be if the work was being done outside of a 'Part P, competent persons, self-certification' scheme.

 

[andyandy2]

I will try and find the guy's no. today, I know i've put it somewhere safe !!!!!!! (am i allowed to post no's on here) I noticed your in cheshire also, which area ? The guy was not happy with the way BC had advised me, his quote was " a 78 year old grandmother can do a rewire if she's able" as long as its notified its up to building control to check, the way they are treating you sounds like they just don't want to get involved, and are trying to push you along the other route

 

[pdenni]

dingbat

Maybe it works differently in your neck of the woods, but any work that has been carried out on extensions which include bathrooms/kitchens have all had to have certified and before the building has been passed by building control electrical certs are required, you have to be either part p or 2391 to sign these off.

 

[securespark]

I will try and find the guy's no. today, I know i've put it somewhere safe !!!!!!! (am i allowed to post no's on here) I noticed your in cheshire also, which area ?

Stockport....

The guy I had a conversation with is obviously anti- non-part-p folk working on electrics and is trying his hardest to put me off. He picked the wrong bloke.

I had a word with the ex-ODPM today. A guy there told me to re-read 1.17-1.29.

There are 3 categories of persons:

1. part p cert'd.

2. qualified electricians

3. DIY'ers.

This the guy at Stockport LABC failed to tell me. I pleaded ignorant of part p to see what he would tell me. He even went so far as to arrogantly retort "If you were au-fait with part p then you'd know that, wouldn't you?"

Obviously he knows sweet FA about part p, or, more likely, is being incredibly selective with what he tells the public they can & can't do under part p.

As I said, he picked the wrong guy. I'm in the process of writing a very long letter pointing out the error of his ways.

 

[securespark]

dingbat

Maybe it works differently in your neck of the woods, but any work that has been carried out on extensions which include bathrooms/kitchens have all had to have certified and before the building has been passed by building control electrical certs are required, you have to be either part p or 2391 to sign these off.

No you don't!

Not according to my bosses!

Many of us don't have 2391, but we complete & sign the EIC's.

 

[plugwash]

i heard of a bloke who signed certs without qualifications, he got caught and ended up with 8 years in prison, scary stuff.

Without knowing what he was actually sent to prison for this is a pretty meaningless anecdote.

 

[JohnD]

I heard of a double-decker bus on the moon.

It was in the paper.