Oh the vermin are at it again.

When you buy meat or products containing meat, do you check the country of origin, or the animal welfare associated with the product?

Because I bet that like 99% of the people condemning fox hunting, you don't.
Hmm...

I must be the 1% then, 50 dipshits of grey, (or whatever percentage you care to pluck out of the air... ;) )

All meat bought locally, and as far is possible to do, checked for humane conditions...

We have half a lamb in the freezer that I saw just minutes before it was killed...

Free range eggs from our 4 chickens that according to government figures have an area that it is acceptable to keep 142 in!

When we kill them, it is done humanely and we make a point of showing our kids so they understand where food comes from and they have a choice as to whether they want meat products or not...

So don't come all 'high and mighty' with me A*r*S*e/50 dipshits of grey, because you have no idea at all !
 
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Try reading that sentence a bit more carefully ellal.

Tell you what, I am feeling generous so will point out the relevant bit for you, don't want you straining yourself..

Meat or products containing meat.

Many pre made items on the the supermarket shelf use egg powder from battery hen eggs, many products use beef gelatine from countries that do not have our standards of animal welfare.

or whatever percentage you care to pluck out of the air... icon_wink.gif

Go round your supermarket and look at pre made items, sweets, canned goods etc.

Look at all the non UK meat on offer, much of it from countries that still use practices we have banned, but then we still have issue of animal welfare in farming (live transport).

Sure I plucked that 99% out of the air, so what, 3% of people are vegetarians, the vast majority do not buy meat with much thought to it's animal welfare (you only need to look at the difference in stock size to welfare meat and non welfare meat) ok so maybe it's 95%.

Oh wow, that's me proven wrong :LOL:


Maybe you genuinely *are* that 5%, great, still doesn't disprove my point that most people condemning fox hunting are hypocrites.
 
still doesn't disprove my point that most people condemning fox hunting are hypocrites.
Do these people who kill this food for our consumption (and its byproduct usage) go galloping round the countryside in large numbers for their enjoyment during the kill? Do they whoop and holler in glee as they watch a pack of hounds tear the hunted animal apart, thus making it unfit for human consumption anyway?

The answer is clearly no. Animal livestock is kept and killed for us to eat or use for specific purposes to aid our survival. Unless you can demonstrate that those who farm and run abattoires (or indeed perform research using animals), or those who hunt predators alone and overnight to protect livestock are having a real good old shindig whilst they perform this task and get a real kick out of watching their prey suffer, then obviously hunting for fun and hunting for a purpose are obviously different things.

Thus it is perfectly reasonable to be against one whilst not against the other. This is not hypocritical nor class "envy". Is is a question of scruples and morality.

:rolleyes:
 
I agree with the entire points Aron made, yes no one bothers looking at meat products which country they come from, or weather they are bread in a healthy environment, and how they are slaughtered!

I also guilty mysel, because on the one hand I love animals, i love my cats, yet I have to buy cat food that is mainly made out of chicken and rabbit bits! and I am not a vegetarian!

So overall, I am unhappy about everything, the way it is , I just wish the whole world was vegetarian and animals did not kill each other for their hunger, and they all grazed grass, and gave us healthy milk or its products, but not meat and flesh.

On another subject of halal or Kosher as often perceived as a torture, welll i will tell you weather it is or not, and my views on that will be totally independent and unbiased, based on my own judgement with reasons as I am not a Muslim or Jew by faith, so wait until I get some time to put reasons why i think halal or Kosher isn't torture as most belive.

However, imagine any animal needs to be killed for food, or simply because it has become a pest and is ruining crops, then there is nothing better than a short sharp bullet through his head, so how does this differ when an animal is grabbed by so many hounds , one pulling him from his hind legs, another pulling him from his front legs, and he is getting shreaded in pieces slowly, torturously, one by one his veins are being ripped off, his flesh is tearing apart, he is in intense pain, his eyes are still open, he is still trying to hope for some help, but he doesn't know that no one near him will help him as he is on an evil planet full of evil people around him happy to watch him get shreaded!

Who said fox hunting is not cruel, and is a clean and quick death! is it really? what if your body was gripped from two ends and split apart, would you die a quick painless death?
 
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Do these people who kill this food for our consumption (and its byproduct usage) go galloping round the countryside in large numbers for their enjoyment during the kill? Do they whoop and holler in glee as they watch a pack of hounds tear the hunted animal apart, thus making it unfit for human consumption anyway?


So now we come full circle and you repeat what I have already responded to.

There are several points to be made to refute your above quote, sorry, I can't just refute you with a snappy one liner, or "win" the argument by calling you an idiot, i'll leave that style of "debate" to you and ellal.



If the fox numbers need to be controlled, that means killing them, you are killing them for a purpose, why does it matter if that purpose is not for food.

Why does enjoying it make it suddenly "bad", as I said.

I see no reason why enjoying it makes any moral difference, other than a moral projection (I think it's wrong, therefore anyone who enjoys it is wrong).

Is it wrong if a butcher enjoys his job, what nonsense.

So we kill foxes by gun at night, well that's OK then, but what if the person enjoys it :eek:

Then it's wrong :rolleyes:

No, it's not ideal, I don't "support" fox hunting. But I don't see it as a great evil, it's just doing to the fox what nature does to animals as par for the course, do we go round calling nature evil.

And yea, I see it as class warfare, otherwise why all the toff comments, pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

And yea, I can't stand the hypocrisy wafting off from you're type, maybe *maybe* you'll turn around and say you are also the 5% like ellal.

But more likely you buy all kinds of stuff that contains animal products that are linked to animal cruelty.

Animal cruelty that is about nothing more than saving a few pounds, or making a slapper look a bit prettier, after all we only have 100000000 shades of lipstick, got to keep animal testing for 100000001.

At least fox hunting is honest.
 
It is the method of hunting that is cruel, not the fox hunting, using hounds to rip the animal to shreads, this is not only extremely painful to watch, unless you are a very sad person, and enjoy watching animals suffer or being ripped apart and into tiny shreads, You can imagine how painful this is to watch then what about the poor suffering of that animal being ripped up.

Going out at night or day for that matter and shooting dead foxes is probably still acceptable to some extent, as long as the suffering is kept to minimum, but certainly not by using barbaric methods and sending a pack of hounds behind a single defenseless fox.

But ther are even better and kind ways if you still don't want these pests to suffer, set traps for them, capture them live and then euthanise them, it may cost more so what, at least the poor animals don't have to suffer a torture!

So there is no excuse to say these pests destroy our crops.
 
Sorry calorific, but which part of my post is too complicated for you, or is this just another pointless contribution from you because you have nothing intelligent to say, and want to jump on the trolling bandwagon?


It's pretty simple.

People condemn fox hunting as "cruel", then weekly buy products that contribute to animal cruelty far far worse than fox hunting.

People condemn fox hunting, because people enjoy it, that is not a reason to condemn it.

People repeatedly make anti "toff" comments, if you can't join the dots, sorry, I don't have a join the dots version for under 4's.

The problem is how can it be right to enjoy the ripping apart of an animal for fun ? hunting with dogs is not as effective as a marksman.
In my brother in laws case the fox was running towards them thinking it was about to have a meal ! it wasn't terrorised and running for its life.

Whats quoting animal experiments got to do with the topic under discussion ? most of the time animal experimentation is perverted pseudo science anyway and morally repugnant.
 
So now we come full circle and you repeat what I have already responded to.
You advised me that you weren't responding to my posts, so you hadn't responded to me

There are several points to be made to refute your above quote, sorry, I can't just refute you with a snappy one liner, or "win" the argument by calling you an idiot, i'll leave that style of "debate" to you and ellal.
then refute it using properly, if you can

If the fox numbers need to be controlled, that means killing them, you are killing them for a purpose, why does it matter if that purpose is not for food.
The purpose is always for food - in particular to protect livestock

Why does enjoying it make it suddenly "bad", as I said.
Because getting a "kick" out of seeing suffering is not good. Being unable to empathise with a living object is not good. If it has to be done, then do it quickly and efficiently without a long and arduous chase for the poor thing.

I see no reason why enjoying it makes any moral difference, other than a moral projection (I think it's wrong, therefore anyone who enjoys it is wrong).
By this logic, you could defend murderers, rapists, child molesters, hooliganism, or indeed plain old cruelty to animals for the fun of it, etc. Are you stating that "anything goes"?

Is it wrong if a butcher enjoys his job, what nonsense.
It depends on what he is enjoying about the job, obviously.

So we kill foxes by gun at night, well that's OK then, but what if the person enjoys it :eek:
Then he should keep his mouth shut about it and not get a load of like minded fellows to go waltzing around the county whooping and hollering like some primeval ******.

Then it's wrong :rolleyes:
Correct

No, it's not ideal, I don't "support" fox hunting. But I don't see it as a great evil, it's just doing to the fox what nature does to animals as par for the course, do we go round calling nature evil.
The method of hunting as a "social event" is what makes it wrong. It removes the moral responsibility of the individual and allows people to hide in a pack mentality. Normal, well balanced people suddenly behave badly in a lynch mob and they damage themselves by doing so.

And yea, I see it as class warfare, otherwise why all the toff comments, pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
I see no class argument. "Toffs" may be the only ones with the financial ability to partake, but that is purely a coincidence.

And yea, I can't stand the hypocrisy wafting off from you're type, maybe *maybe* you'll turn around and say you are also the 5% like ellal.
What type am I then? And what type are you that permits you to claim some moral high ground?

But more likely you buy all kinds of stuff that contains animal products that are linked to animal cruelty.
Quite probably. But I like to think that those involved don't metaphorically salivate and onanise over the suffering that they cause.

Animal cruelty that is about nothing more than saving a few pounds, or making a slapper look a bit prettier, after all we only have 100000000 shades of lipstick, got to keep animal testing for 100000001.
You left this unfinished, but it's clear where you were going and it's clear what my response would have been, as we've both repeated our positions.

At least fox hunting is honest.
So is raping little girls. But I can't see a justification for that either.
 
I have always wanted to prove that slitting the throat of an animal is not as painful as it seems. (I am not a Halal man, still I could defend it and probably it is more kinder method than ramming bulls against a huge saw blade where some of these animals are still half alive despite stunning them, and they are hung upside down from just one leg! )

The pain any animal suffers during the slitting process is no more intense than say accidentally cutting your finger or part of your arm or you leg with a sharp knife.

Sometimes we do not even feel anything when we have cut ourselves, we only realise when we see blood oozing out! and most of the time we do not scream when we cut ourself, we shout a curse! we normaly say Oh ****e! I have just cut myself!


So now, if you take any animal, even if you were not going to slaughter it, you try to constrain it, and lead him away, it will protest and cry out, unless that animal knows you and trust you and it knows that you are the owner and you feed him daily.

so, any animal if you then force it to lie down, you push it, you grab his head and pull it down, it will strongly protest and cry out loud, it will know something is up!

So when a group of men surround a poor animal and they are all trying to push and pull him, with or without ropes tied awkwardly around its neck, and may be around its legs and push it over on its side to be slaughtered, the animal starts crying there and then, it is not crying because of any pain yet, but the animal's natural instinct tells it that something is wrong, he starts fearing something is coming up!

and when his throat is finally slit open, he simply bleeds to death with very little pain, his brain dies pretty much quickly due to lack of blood and even if his eyes are wide open, he sees nothing but darkness,

In humans when they have blood circulation problem, and their blood pressure suddenly goes low, on getting up they often feel dizzy and they loose their vision for a split second, a dark shadow appears in front of their vision, until the blood pressure climbs up again.

So the animal being slaughter simply feels a very slight pain, though it is distressed already for being confined and tied up, it struggles to escape but cannot, it start to cry out loud,

eventually that animal dies through loss of blood and not through torturous pain but some light pain, the sharper the knife the less drag on flesh, and lesser the pain.



If you took the same animal and took it to an operating theater, and under general anesthesia had two radio controlled valves implanted in his jugular veins or arteries, each of which leads up to his brain, and then after implanting this radio controlled valve, the animal recovers from his operation and is then left to graze normally in his choice of field for a few days, like nothing happened to him.

While implanting radio controlled valves, the animal is also implanted with other sensor that monitors his brain activity and his stress levels, his heart beat. etc etc.

Some weeks later, observers secretly monitoring the animal send a command to close off those two main valves, the observers may then notice the animal did not undergo any distress, it simply laid down when it felt unwell due to lack of oxygenated blood reaching his brain, and it may either simply lay down, or fall off to its one side, his vision becomes darker, he may become confused and so might let out one or two cries, and simply goes quiet and dies a painless death, his stress levels may have gone up.

If as a man, you suffer a sudden loss of vision, for no apparent reason
(unless you knew that you got punched!) then your stress levels would shoot up! You would start wondering what is suddenly wrong with me!

same way the animal may still get stressed out, but not through pain!
so eventually as the valves are commanded to shut off the blood supply, the animal retires to ground, his brain sends signals that something is wrong, his heart rate goes up trying to compensate for loss of blood pressure. That is provided his nerves are still intact,

But in the end the animal does not suffer a horrific death, but people like me will feel always feel they were under intense pain, when the fact is they cannot be, so in my view, independent, not biased towards Halal either way, is the same as killing animals through stunning method, where animals are equally distressed and as they are prevented from escaping and pushed towards their final destiny, stunned and chopped off with big circular saw blades!

No difference really!
 
Sligtly off subject but its about animal suffering:

I had a cat that became very ill, lost so much weight, stopped eating, took him to my usual vet, he diagnosed that he was suffering from FIV, I was in tears, he gave me two options, one if I spent 1500 quid for a blood transfusion, 2nd Euthanasia. he said the cat may not survive another day that he was that ill!

He also said that he cannot guarantee if the cat would survive after the blood transfusion, and said there is only a 50% chance of him recovering, and that he will have to be taken to an animal hospital and given blood.

I turned around and said, well if he can't guarantee me after spending 1500quid for a blood transfusion, then I might as well take the cat away and take a chance, as I am sure he will have that same chance of 50% of surviving, as is, regardless of blood transfusion.

I requested him to give my cat some strong antibiotic jab instead, if he wouldn't mind. He replied he was going to do that any way.

Took my cat home, he recovered enough by next day and I was relieved he started to pull through, started eating, and after that I would not spare anything for that cat, he would have the best food money could buy, lived for another 8 years and then died whilst I was away on holidays, my first ever holidays in 20 years time and I was devastated! this friend I had for so many years left me and I was not even there for him!

So the point I am making is that I could not see my cat even go through the pain of Euthanasia, the Vet told me that after injecting that substance his heart would stop and he would just jerk for a few seconds and it will be over, but I could not even see that cat go through this. Who am I to make decisions when he is to die, I left it to God!

So my Vet was a rip off merchant, all Vets are not really interested in the health and welfare of animals but in ripping their owners through emotional blackmail, that blood transfusion was one example.

However, would you believe that my Vet wrote down in my cats medical notes or history that I the owner of that cat refused to provide Blood transfusion when cat was on the verge of death! (Barsteward!)

I never take my cat to any Vet any more, I use animal charity like Celia Hammond to treat my cats where prime concern is animal welfare and not profiting through emotional blackmailing.

I do not have a great deal of respect for RSPCA either, when I have phoned them several times in the past about abandoned and suffering Cat, or dogs, vulnerable to fox attacks, they replied just leave them alone, they will fend for themselves! They only deal with cruelty issues and accident victims, their resources are limited!

Cats are surprisingly resilient. We thought ours was dying recently from an infection sustained after a fight with another cat. Our vet was very reassuring and helpful and gave him antibiotics. Now he's back to normal and behaving like a playful kitten despite his 17 years.
 
Cats are surprisingly resilient. We thought ours was dying recently from an infection sustained after a fight with another cat. Our vet was very reassuring and helpful and gave him antibiotics. Now he's back to normal and behaving like a playful kitten despite his 17 years.
This is indeed good news. What is of particular joy is the knowledge that your cat's continued life will give misery, ire and angst for posters such as Lastmagicbean who do not appreciate our feline friends :mrgreen: ;)
 
Cats are surprisingly resilient. We thought ours was dying recently from an infection sustained after a fight with another cat. Our vet was very reassuring and helpful and gave him antibiotics. Now he's back to normal and behaving like a playful kitten despite his 17 years.
This is indeed good news. What is of particular joy is the knowledge that your cat's continued life will give misery, ire and angst for posters such as Lastmagicbean who do not appreciate our feline friends :mrgreen: ;)

I had to physically restrain myself from replying to JBR on this sensitive subject. :LOL: :LOL:

Wrote a reply three times but kept deleting. :D ;)
 
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