PART P REFERENCE - no ranting please

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As mentioned in an earlier post, I've written a document outlining the requirements of Part P, which I hope will end up as a locked sticky at the top of the list so that we can all stop mentioning it, and get on with giving electrical advice.

Coupled with links to it from the "How To" pages, which are the entry points for many people to this forum, I think we would then be safe in assuming that if they have come here to ask advice then they are aware of its existence.

I'm posting the first draft here for comments and review.

I'm going to be away for a week, so ample time for you all to mull it over and post suggestions.

As the topic subject says, please don't use this as another opportunity to vent your spleen over Part P - it'll do no good anyway as it is my intention to ask admin to remove this entire thread once the document is finalised...
 
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That's a great idea Ban, and I look forward to seeing it, but I see a problem:

We already know, and have seen from the silly debates here, that Part P lays itself wide open to "creative interpretation". For the site owners to accept your document as a set reference, they will have to be very certain of their legal position....
 
DIY Electrical work and the law

On January 1st 2005 legislation came into effect which brought electrical work in dwellings under the Building Regulations, and made it a controlled service. This amendment to the Building Regulations, known as "Part P", imposes safety requirements, and also classifies electrical installation work into two basic categories, notifiable and non-notifiable.

Essentially the distinction is between major work, or work in what are deemed high-risk areas such as kitchens, bathrooms and gardens, and minor work such as replacing switches or adding sockets to existing circuits. (NB to those with a knowledge of the IEE Wiring Regulations, the term "minor work" is used here in its generic sense rather than the meaning defined in the Wiring Regs.)

A very important and fundamental point to note is that DIY electrical work has not been outlawed. It has been brought within the remit of the Building Regulations and cannot be carried out as freely as it was before, and in many cases cannot be carried out without involving your local council, but you may still DIY.

Major work is classed as notifiable, i.e. it must be notified to your Local Authority's Building Control department (LABC). How this happens depends on who does it.

If the work is carried out by an electrician who is registered with one of the organisations who administer self-certification schemes, (sometimes referred to as "Competent Person" schemes) they carry out the work and report the details to their scheme organiser, who then notify the appropriate LABC that the work has taken place, and that it has been certified by the person who carried it out as being in compliance with the Building Regulations. You may be familiar with this method of operation if you have ever had windows replaced by a FENSA member.

If the work is carried out by someone who is not registered with one of the schemes, be they an electrician or another type of tradesman (e.g. kitchen fitter) who has chosen not to register, or a DIYer, then it must be notified to LABC in advance in the same way that any building work which requires their involvement is notified in advance. And just like when you are building an extension, or converting a loft, etc, there is a fee payable to LABC to cover their activities related to checking compliance with the Building Regulations. (But see "LABC Scams" below regarding this).

The full text of the legislation can be found here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20043210.htm and it is worth making the effort to read it, and understand it, because there is a lot of misinformation on the Internet, some of it put out by organisations with a vested interest in pretending that DIY work is illegal, some of it by LABCs who have either misunderstood the legislation, or who are also attempting to mislead the public in order to reduce the amount of work notified to them by non-self-certifying people, some of it, surprisingly, by the ODPM themselves (The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister were responsible for the legislation), and much of it on electrical advice and discussion fora like this one.

At the time of writing (July 2005), the following work was classed as not needing notification to LABC:

[code:1]1. Work consisting of -

(a) replacing any socket-outlet, control switch or ceiling
rose;

(b) replacing a damaged cable for a single circuit only;

(c) re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing
installation components, where the circuit
protective measures are unaffected;

(d) providing mechanical protection to an existing
fixed installation, where the circuit protective
measures and current carrying capacity of
conductors are unaffected by the increased thermal
insulation.


2. Work which -

(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,

(b) does not involve work on a special installation, and

(c) consists of -


(i) adding light fittings and switches to an
existing circuit;

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an
existing ring or radial circuit; or

(iii) installing or upgrading main or supplementary
equipotential bonding.


3. Work on -

(a) telephone wiring or extra-low voltage wiring for the
purposes of communications, information technology,
signalling, control and similar purposes, where the
wiring is not in a special location;

(b) equipment associated with the wiring referred to in
sub-paragraph (a).
[/code:1]
The terms "kitchen", "special installation" and "special location" are defined in the legislation.

Like any law, things can change, and you are urged to ensure that you make yourself familiar with the law as it stands now, not necessarily as it was when this document was written.

The starting point on the ODPM website for information related to Building Regulations is http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/gro...ments/sectionhomepage/odpm_buildreg_page.hcsp and a list of the relevant legislation can be found at http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_600270.hcsp .

It is in the nature of the Internet for sites to change, and it may well be that today, when you are reading this, the links above no longer work, and you will have to search for the pages you want.


Useful Information

On the ODPM website there are a number of "Approved Documents"
( http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/divisionhomepage/br0041.hcsp ). These are not definitions of the law, nor do they tell you what you must, or must not, do. Instead they give guidance on ways in which the law can be satisfied. They do point out that you are not obliged to adopt any solution contained in them if you prefer to meet the requirements in another way, but that said they are useful as they contain common sense advice and often there is no good reason not to adopt the solutions they contain.

Approved Document P can be found here: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_br1007.pdf .


Technical Requirements

The technical requirements laid down by Part P are remarkably simple. They are:

  1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury.
  2. Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety.
It is worth noting however that they apply to all work, not just notifiable work, no matter who does it. So a DIYer adding a socket or a fused spur to a ring final circuit must work to the same technical standards as a registered electrician doing a complete rewire.

The biggest practical issue that arises is testing. To carry out testing of electrical circuits requires expertise and equipment, neither of which are likely to possessed by the average DIYer. So although Part P allows a DIYer to replace an entire circuit cable if it is damaged, without notification, it is arguable that he could not be sure that he had done it properly unless he carried out a series of tests on it, something he would probably be unable to do.


The IEE Wiring Regulations, aka BS 7671

Surprisingly, perhaps, Part P does not alter the status of the Wiring Regulations. They are still non-statutory, and there is still no legal requirement to adhere to them in domestic installations. This is a source of great discomfort to many electricians, and some of them will jump through hoops to try and prove that they are mandatory, but the fact remains that they are not.

HOWEVER, adherence to them is a very good way of ensuring that you meet the technical requirements of Part P, and you would need a very good reason, and a very good understanding of what you were doing, to decide to not adhere to them.


LABC Scams

As mentioned above, some LABCs are spreading misinformation, either by accident or design, about the status and acceptability of electrical work done by DIYers or other non-registered people.

These include:

1) Stating that such persons simply cannot carry out notifiable work, and that it must be done by registered electricians. The legislation referenced above, Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004 makes it quite clear that this is not the case. LABCs are not allowed to refuse to process Building Notices submitted by non-registered people.

2) Stating that work carried out by a non-registered person must be inspected and tested by someone who is registered. Again, there is no mention of this requirement in the statutory instrument

3) Attempting to impose extra charges to cover the inspection and testing of work done by a non-registered person. An LABC may well elect to subcontract inspection and testing if they do not have the capacity to do it themselves, but they are not allowed to charge extra because of this – the cost to them of subcontracting must be borne by them

Individual local authorities co-ordinate their services regionally and nationally (and provide a range of national approval schemes) via LABC Services. (http://www.labc-services.co.uk).

I recently posed LABC services the following question:

"My local Building Control dept has told me that because of staffing problems they are unable to inspect some building work, and will have to sub-contract it, and that I will therefore have to pay this cost on top of their fees.

Are they allowed to do this?
"

Their reply was:

"Building Regulation fees are set to a scale that embraces the whole scope of what may be necessary in respect of checking and approving the plans and inspecting the work. The input necessary can vary according to the circumstances of a specific scheme, but the fees are not variable due to this feature.

The local authority has a legal duty to carry out the Building Regulation function to a proper degree. This can also vary in extent according to the demands of any scheme and considerable discretion rests with the authority. However they are responsible to give a proper service within the fee and cannot charge extra for the reason you mention. Indeed if they failed to inspect yet still charged you might have a case for a refund
."
 
ninebob said:
That's a great idea Ban, and I look forward to seeing it, but I see a problem:

We already know, and have seen from the silly debates here, that Part P lays itself wide open to "creative interpretation". For the site owners to accept your document as a set reference, they will have to be very certain of their legal position....
If you think I've interpreted it incorrectly, or even if you think I have added any personal interpretation, please let me know..
 
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I must admit I have only "scan-read" your post, but it looks damn good to me. I hope you're successful in achieving your aim of sticky-ing it. On that note, you did say you wanted this thead leaving clear, so I'll leave it there, but if you're still on-line and you happen to use MSN messenger please see my profile for my email address because I'd quite like your learned opinion on exactly what my next step is on my ass-kicking trail re my own bathroom situation....
 
seems good as is. as short as can be without losing detail and precision..
 
I can not speak for admin, but my concerns are:

Your subject line "labc scams"

I can not say if you are right or wrong, but "scams" is not a good word to use in this case.

Also I understand your concerns regarding part p, but how many people do you think will read it first, yes it can be referred to, as in "please see [link to post] "

Also I find it a "bit long" Perhaps a shortened version? (Some may not understand most of your technical terms) This is a diy forum, and "the user" only wants to "fit a light in the bathroom" they will probably not understand most of what you have written.

Then there is the legal aspect, the forum can not give legal advice, only point people in the right direction, which your post appears to do, although it is a collaboration of statements that are hosted on this forum. It still looks like a “legal document”

I understand why you have written this, I appreciate your frustrations with people asking about things they can no longer do themselves, because of part p I hope that admin will accept it, but I do not think so, if this is the case perhaps you could host it on your own website and it could be referred to?

Good luck.

Lynda
 
the title could be listed along the lines 'urgent - part p. read before doing electrical work'

i think this would get everyone's attention when they visit.

i don't know whether the word 'scams' could cause legal problems for the site, but if this is a concern it could then be replaced with 'issues' or 'problems'. this shouldn't cause any hassle and will educate those considering that path.

i don't know if it could be shortened without losing detail. however moderator makes a valid point that some diyer's may not be bothered to read the whole lot if it seems like mumbo-jumbo. so maybe a quick summary at the top, and if they want to read the full details they can do so.

i hope admin do accept it, because people will then be able to read the sticky before posting their questions. otherwise we would remain in the current situation where people post and leave with their answers, oblivious to part p. i think for that reason it would be in everyone's interest if it was accepted. if a fatal accident occurred and the guy said he did it based on advice from 'diynot.com' and wasn't advised on part p etc, it wouldn't look good on the site and knowing this country, may even end up with legislation against diy sites. unlikely, but the sticky would help things.

finally as its giving advice on how to deal with new legislation, he's had to include quotations from legal documents. i don't think it can be considered legal advice as such, just diy advice on how to get things done the 'right' way.
 
Hi B-A-S

I think your Part P Guide read very well and is as clear as anything I've seen so far! I agree however, that some DIY'ers may not take the time to read it all, so maybe some sort of summary could go at the top. Perhaps this could take the form of :
1. Examples of things you can do
2. Examples of things you can't do

This might then encourage those who see their project in the 'no' list to read on further and/or take advice.

Well done and hope you had a good break!

SB :D
 
Good post Ban, it may be a bit long lon winded, but then it is something that also needs proper explanation so I don't see it as a major flaw.

The LABC Scams would be better listed as "LABC's ...Ensure you know your rights and the fees." And in relation to the fees perhaps this sliding scale that is used nationally could be in the post, just in respect of Part P works so as not to confuse.
 
From what I have been reading both here and elsewhere, I think the document is a very good enhancement to the Electrical DIY forum.

One does not need to read too many forums / fora to realise there are plenty of Pro's who do not understand how Part P of the Building regs affect them or their customers... never mind DIYers !!

Admin ... IMHO ... If there are any other DIY forums with so much info .. then I have not seen them !!
You cannot have too much good info.

P
 
Its a good post. I don't think it could be shorter and include all the information.

If the "labc scams" comment were removed it would make it more professional looking.

I agree with your comments regarding the standing of the regs. However I cant see any local authority or scheme provider allowing anybody to deviate from them accept maybe where say a chartered engineer has come up with some other solution. Therefore the regs are "de facto" legislation.
 
I think it is desireable to have this information to hand and seems to be quite balanced, with the exception of 'scam' as already mentioned. Imputing bad motives to government sounds like tempting fate.

However..... is there to be a general policy of affixing notices on every forum about each section of the building regulations? All that has happened is that a small additional section of building works has not been brought into the system. Legally this is no different to someone installing a new toilet or even repainting the outside of their house.
 
1. Examples of things you can do
2. Examples of things you can't do
If you go down that route it should be
1. Examples of things you can do (without notifying building control, either youreself or by using an electrician who is a member of NIC/NAP etc)

To do that , I'd split it into a main post and links to other sub-topic posts handling an issue at a time - click here if you are thinking about a kitchen, or here for a shed etc..

If you are covering all buildinfg regs and the law, which we should do in other sections too, in a way, then personally I'd also add some words on regularisation procedure, the 6 month statute time limits imposed by section 127 of the magistrates court acts, and perhaps even an
"oh dear I'broken a building reg, what should I do" click here
and a link to the DSA guidelines that local authorities should be following unless they have good reason to do otherwise.

Agree the word scam should be toned down a bit - we know its just B-A-Ss cheerfully abrasive manner, but does your honour concur !
thoughts?
 
no more thoughts - just a bump to keep it at the top of the list, given the two part P queries we've had recently that relate to that very scam.
 

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