Planning Policies and consistent application

[eddieed]

Hi,

Newbie here so don't be too harsh!

I am after a bit of advice, we are about to have our planning permission refused, we have had an e-mail from the planners asking us to withdraw or they will refuse it. I wont withdraw it as I want to appeal, plus I know they only ask to improve their stats!

The Planning Department are not applying policies consistently. We are being rejected due to overbearing however neighbours have had permission with exactly the same distances involved. I admit that there may be a small amount of overbearing however surely policies should be applied consistently! What are peoples thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance

Edit: I probably should have said that an inspector is likely to find some overbearing as well, so it is a bit touch and go and will be down to their opinion, so I guess I am appealing against the inconsistent application of the planning policies, is this likely to work!

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Your appeal will be successful if you can successfully argue against the reasons it has been rejected. There is no useful information posted to enable any other answer other than some idle chit chat.

 

[eddieed]

OK, thanks, I will be a bit more specific but my basic question is should planning policies be applied consistently or is there flexability in their application.

We live in a cluster of 5 houses which are quite close together. We have no back garden for example, we have a side and front garden. There are 2 houses behind us, one directly and one ofset to the left of our property. House 1 is currently 8.5 metres from the back wall of our property at first floor level, house 2 is the same. We have no windows in our rear elevation and neither does the application.

We are applying for a 1st floor extension. This is at it's closest 8.5 metres from house 1 and at its furthest 10 metres (due to the angle of the property house 1 compared to ours) so at no point is it closer than existing. House 1 has a small window serving a small study at first floor level which affords an outlook over our side garden and roof of our existing single storey extension which we want to build over. Planning want to refuse our application due to overbearing and loss of outlook to this window. The window will retain some of its outlook but not all. There are no issues with light or privacy.

The crux is that House 2 have recently had permision to knock down their house and rebuild it from scratch. The rear windows of the new property will be 8.5 metres from our rear wall (and there will be 3 of them serving different rooms). They will face straight into it rather than still afford some outlook as house 1's will. At ground level there will only be 4 metres between our rear wall and the new study of house 2. Knowing what we wanted to do I asked specifics during their application process about the distances. The planners report states that the relevant policy is met and that no harm or overbearing will be caused due to the distance of 8.5 metres and that as the 4 metres is a study and there are plenty of other habitable rooms in the house so its OK.

However we are being refused permision on the same policy as it is deemed too close! Surely this can't be right, if it is acceptable for one it must be for both. I raised this with the planner and he stated that the case was different due to historic over new. However the policy specifically states historic and new should be determined in the same way.

My question is - is an apeal likely to succeed on the basis of the above or will it fail as the distance is too close.

I should also note that our council has no specific distances with regard to window to flank walls in it's policies, only window to window walls which is 20 metres - or less if privacy is not impacted!

 

[cjard]

For my build, we hired a planning consultant who used to run a planning department. He said he would regularly tell his officers that whether they liked an application or not, if they were struggling to write the rejection reasons then the application was a pass. Planners have to give rejections that would stand up against appeal, and be consistent with policy. Surely thus phoning you up and asking you to withdraw it would mean they don't have to write a rejection; one must wonder whetyher that's because their reasons for rejection are not particularly robust?

If youre confident that your application is soundly consistent with policy, as was your neighbours that is already approved, then let them go ahead and write the rejections.. It's the only way youre going to get something to work with?

 

[Phil189345985]

For my build, we hired a planning consultant who used to run a planning department. He said he would regularly tell his officers that whether they liked an applciation or not, if they were struggling to write the rejection reasons then the applciation was a pass. Planners have to give rejections that would stand up against appeal, and be consistent with policy. Surely thus phoning you up and asking you to withdraw it would mean they don't have to write a rejection; one must wonder whetyher that's because their reasons for rejection are not particularly robust?

If youre confident that your application is soundly consistent with policy, as was your neighbours that is already approved, then let them go ahead and write the rejections.. It's the only way youre going to get something to work with?

Ditto - or else start a dialogue with them to hammer out a compromise...

 

[eddieed]

Thanks for the advice, I am trying the dialogue on the compromise at the moment, I have offered to them to move the wall a further 30 to 50 cms away. I am familiar with point 187 of the NPPF which requires authorities to find solutions rather than problems. I am willing to work with them, it seems that they are not with me!

Failing that as you say I will have to await the rejection and then appeal on the grounds specified above. With their policy having been satisfied by the other development it must be satisfied by mine.

My concern now is I think they are hunting for other reasons of refusal as well in order to cover themselves!

 

[eddieed]

Well it seems there is no compromise. I requested to meet with them (partly as I wish to understand why they believe they can apply the policy in differing ways to differing developments) but they do not wish to meet with me as they say its a waste of their time, and there was me thinking I was the customer who had paid for this service!

Oh well, we will await the rejection and then appeal, with the hope that the inspector will apply the policies as they are elsewhere and not subjectiveness!

 

[Phil189345985]

Well it seems there is no compromise. I requested to meet with them (partly as I wish to understand why they believe they can apply the policy in differing ways to differing developments) but they do not wish to meet with me as they say its a waste of their time, and there was me thinking I was the customer who had paid for this service!

Oh well, we will await the rejection and then appeal, with the hope that the inspector will apply the policies as they are elsewhere and not subjectiveness!

Keep us updated on progress, will be interesting to see what they come up with ... (might even get through if they were bluffing!)
Phil.

 

[eddieed]

Well we had our refusal notice today. Thankfully they haven't found any other reasons for refusal.

So we have just the refusal based on the one policy, however they have already shown that our planning meets the requirements of this policy by allowing the permission behind us. I just need to articulate this properly. They refute the claim stating that it is different becasue one is a new build! However the policy states new and old.

So now to appeal - which is our final hurdle. We have had a similar appeal dismissed in the past so hopefully they will not be subjective but apply the policies as required.

One thing I did learn today is that their senior planning officer left on Friday, I wonder if he has gone independent and if I should hunt him down to help me out!

 

[cjard]

The crux is that House 2 have recently had permision to knock down their house and rebuild it from scratch. The rear windows of the new property will be 8.5 metres from our rear wall (and there will be 3 of them serving different rooms). They will face straight into it rather than still afford some outlook as house 1's will. At ground level there will only be 4 metres between our rear wall and the new study of house 2. Knowing what we wanted to do I asked specifics during their application process about the distances. The planners report states that the relevant policy is met and that no harm or overbearing will be caused due to the distance of 8.5 metres and that as the 4 metres is a study and there are plenty of other habitable rooms in the house so its OK.

!

Sure wish I lived in your parish. . I just had an application for a new build refused because it was 11m away from its side neighbour and 16m away from its back neighbour. Adopted policy States they must be 13m and 21m respectively. . If every house in Blackburn were built to those specs it would probably cover all of Lancashire!

 

[eddieed]

Well I have finally got round to submitting the appeal. The 12 week deadline was up on Friday...lets see what happens now.

 

[Architexeter]

Now the appeal is up and running, I wonder if I could get anyone's thoughts on whether it worth reapplying with a slight tweek but making sure it goes to planning committee by badgering the ward member?

Applicant can hopefully register to speak at committee and mention the unfairness and inconsistency and also a heart felt family story about needing the extension. Win the conmmittee's hearts (remember this is now politics not just planning).

If it is ultimately refused at committee, withdraw the application straight away.

Politics & Planning, beat them at their own game?

Could this work, can this still be done?

 

[eddieed]

Now the appeal is up and running, I wonder if I could get anyone's thoughts on whether it worth reapplying with a slight tweek but making sure it goes to planning committee by badgering the ward member?

Applicant can hopefully register to speak at committee and mention the unfairness and inconsistency and also a heart felt family story about needing the extension. Win the conmmittee's hearts (remember this is now politics not just planning).

If it is ultimately refused at committee, withdraw the application straight away.

Politics & Planning, beat them at their own game?

Could this work, can this still be done?

It is an interesting theory and one I have thought about. I also thought about chosing the oral method of appeal for this reason.

The reason I decided not to in the end is that I decided it wasn't worth it. There have been a lot of planning applications around us and I watched what happened to most of them. I identified that should a case be taken to committee with a recommendation for refusal the committee usually followed the recommendation and refused it. I would say this happened 99% of the time.

If a case was recommended for approval then it was 50:50 as to which way it went. Most of them that went against the officers recommendation then got allowed at appeal as basically the case officer had deemed it acceptable so the reasons had to basically be made up!

 

[rjm2k]

Now the appeal is up and running, I wonder if I could get anyone's thoughts on whether it worth reapplying with a slight tweek but making sure it goes to planning committee by badgering the ward member?

Applicant can hopefully register to speak at committee and mention the unfairness and inconsistency and also a heart felt family story about needing the extension. Win the conmmittee's hearts (remember this is now politics not just planning).

If it is ultimately refused at committee, withdraw the application straight away.

Politics & Planning, beat them at their own game?

Could this work, can this still be done?

Just bear in mind that as in another recent posting on here, you won't get the chance to speak at the committee unless someone (other than the planning dept) objects to it!

 

[eddieed]

Just bear in mind that as in another recent posting on here, you won't get the chance to speak at the committee unless someone (other than the planning dept) objects to it!

I forgot about that. The person most likely to speak at ours is now selling his house so I don't think I would get an opportunity. If you were clever I guess you could ask someone you are friendly with to put in a suruptisious non legal objection and then ask to speak if it went to committee.

Aside from that I am impressed with this new householde appeal process.

Have our appointment for the site visit booked for 19th Feb. So should have a decision by the end of the month.