Problems with loop-in-rose. No wires in centre terminal!

[pappyon]

Following the instructions given on this site I have been trying to fit a light in my loft by taking a connection from the ceiling rose on the landing adjacent to the loft hatch

My problem is that when I try to follow the instruction below my wiring is different. There are no wires connected to the central terminal block!

Connecting to an existing loop in rose
Ensure the mains supply is switched off. Unscrew the ceiling rose of the light to be connected revealing the terminals. Pass new cable through to the terminals from above. The RED conductor on the new wiring should be connected to the CENTRAL THREE TERMINAL BLOCK with the other red (live) conductors. The BLACK conductor should be attached to the THREE TERMINAL BLOCK with the other black conductors and the blue conductor going to the light flex. Finally connect the earth conductor with the other earth conductors into the large screw terminal. The cover to the ceiling rose can now be replaced.

There are no wires connected to the Central Three-terminal block in the two ceiling roses I have opened up to examine and when I wire the live connector into the live which goes to the switch, my loft light can only be operated when the other light is switched on.

This is no good as I could be in the loft and somebody could switch the light off and I would be left literally in the dark which would be extremely dangerous as my loft isn't floored yet.

A prompt reply would be much appreciated!

 

[Spark123]

It sounds like they are not wired loop in at the ceiling rose, hence you need to find the permanent supply from somewhere. If you follow the red/black wire back from the rose, does it go to a junction box?

 

[pappyon]

I thank you for your prompt reply to my question!

This is an ex council house property I have just bought and have no knowledge of how it is wired, but I can tell you that it was completely rewired not so long ago by the council or their contractors.

I am back in my own house now and cannot check what you have asked me, but I am of the opinion there are no junction boxes in the loft at all.

By a junction box I assume you mean the round plastic box with the screw on lid, and a minimum of three screw terminals inside. I think I can state categorically that there are none of these in the loft!

I opened a ceiling rose in the bedroom and as I have said there are no wires going to the central block of terminals on this rose either. Just a wire with red sleeving on the other two block terminal.

 

[pappyon]

Please excuse me if I don't reply to any response you might make tonight as I have to close the PC down just now. I will try to log on early tomorrow morning. Thank you for your help!

 

[starspark]

have u checked the switches?they may have looped into there instead. which unfortunately will make it a whole lot more awkward!!

 

[Taylortwocities]

By a junction box I assume you mean the round plastic box with the screw on lid

It is more likely to be a 6" square box with a lid that is fixed by 4 screws. - Or looped in the switch.... Just follow the wire from one of the ceiling roses and tell us where it leads!

 

[ColJack]

take off a single switch and if you have 2 or 3 lots of cables in it ( ie 2-3 red / brown, 2-3 black / blue, and 2-3 earth ) then you have "loop in" at the switches..

 

[pappyon]

I would say in recollection when I slackened off switches to allow the plasterer to get under them when covering artex that I have "loop-in" at the switches, as there was a maze of wires which I have never seen in a light switch before! I can remembering thinking "I wouldn't like to have to disconect these wires and then connect them back up as I would be completely lost."

However I will check the switches again and look for a junction box in the loft when I go back to the house today and post back tonight hoping that the thread will be kept alive.

I am almost certain that there is no junction box!

I thank everybody again for contributing to my post. It is much appreciated!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This is an ex council house property I have just bought
.
.
.
I am back in my own house now.

What do you plan on doing with the ex-council house you have just bought but aren't living in?

 

[pappyon]

I intend moving into this house out of a 4th floor council flat as my wife has a severe heart condition and very bad arthritis and finds it very difficult to climb all the stairs!

 

[chris765]

I recently had an incident where I had no loop in my ceiling roses.
For some strange reason the person that put them in decided to use terminal block instead of the middle terminals of the ceiling rose and then just tuck them in the ceiling extending down what s/he wanted.

See this diagram I quickly knocked up:

Might be worth popping the ceiling rose off and have a look?

Hope this makes sense?

 

[chris765]

oops i forgot the CPC (earth wire) from switch live to the other CPCs.

 

[pappyon]

I thank you for your assistance, but I could find no terminal strip in the ceiling rose.

Also there is no junction box in the loft. As advised here I traced the switch wire with the red sleeving from the landing ceiling rose, and it only goes to the landing light switch

I checked the light switch in the bedroom next to the landing light and there were only 2 wires going to it. I was baffled and gave up the idea of taking a connection from any ceiling rose.

This is what I did. We are having a mixer shower fitted so I used the redundant cable from the electric shower which is on its own dedicated mcb on the fuseboard. (I think that might be thre wrong terminology) I joined the cable using a FCU and took a connection from it to an ancient double pole switch which had been used for an immerser about 40 years ago, and wired a 5' fluorescent tube into it using cable from an old washing machine. On the other end of the 10mm2 cable I fitted a socket in the loft which will come in handy for using power tools etc.

One question I would like to ask, why is the LED on this old switch to the loft light on all the time now even when the light is switched off? It wasn't like this on the last application it was used, which was a switch for a cupboard light, and just plugged into a socket!

 

[Zambezi]

One question I would like to ask, why is the LED on this old switch to the loft light on all the time now even when the light is switched off? !

It is normally a neon light and they will either stay on or come on when switch is on, depending on which way around they have been wired. So if the little tails for the neon light go into the L and N of the side of the switch that you have the supply it will always be on. If the the little wires from the neon go into the terminals that you have the load side connected it will only come on when it is switched on. Some switches you can move the little tails for the neon, some you can't.

No comment on the rest of the wiring you mentioned, sounds suspect?

 

[rebuke]

I suspect it's a neon rather than an LED - often they have two little wires coming out that you wire in to one side or the other (supply or load). I suspect you've either got them in the wrong side, or have put the wires in the wrong side (i.e. the neon is wired to the permanent supply side, rather than the switched load side).