Public Drain Blocked - Sewage Flooded Underfloor

[Foolish_]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input. On the above:

Hugh is correct, it is a clay circular chamber under the kitchen. It is approx 50cm tall. It has a ridge around the inside half way down so possibly in two sections. The top of the chamber is 45cm below the suspended kitchen floor, so about 1m deep from ground level.

I had a look at the plans submitted to the council prior for the extension work at the care home. It shows 4 new bedroms with ensuites. I've attached the plans below for the curious. The original property also has a upstairs ensuite, so there are a total of 6 bathrooms running through the 10cm pipe and IC that bust. My house is marked in green. The 15cm pipe that runs along the street to the main sewer (just off screen to the top), serves 4 other houses that are upstream/off the bottom of the picture. The X marks where the original blockage was found.

Re the insurance and thames waters responses. They have both fobbed me off in the past, but this was prior to me having any evidence of the public sewer under the house. Insurance company told me that although they could assist with trace and restoration, and for putting right damaged caused, they wouldn't be involved in fixing the issue.

My last chat with TW was with them working on the assumption it was my own individual and private drains that were faulty, and as such it was up to me to locate and fix it. They had no record of a public sewer under my house. I did tell them I suspected that the neighbour was connected to me (shame I didn't check the diagram above), but until I had the drain survey done, I have no confirmation of this. The fact that it serves the neighbouring property makes it a TW issues. I'm not sure if I'm even allowed to repair it myself.

I'll write to TW at the weekend and let them know I've located the IC and it also serves another property and take it from there.

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Foolish_]

Hi,

Wow - it's been a while

TL;DR summary: 9 months ago, house got flooded by sewage triggered by a blockage on the street drain that somehow managed find a route into my subfloor. Suspected it might be due to an unmapped public sewer that ran under my kitchen. Water company denied knowledge of it, so I had to arrange a drain survey myself to confirm. Using the survey I was able to locate an inspection chamber under my kitchen that had popped open due to the street drain being blocked. On the basis that it was part of a drain that served another property, I contacted the water company to discuss next steps...

Fast forward... a long time. Not much happened in the meantime other than the Mrs complaining a lot about the kitchen floor being a mess Dozens of calls to the water company, but zero progress for ages.

Then last week, I get a phone call from the Mrs as a drain surveyor was at the door. Seems like they had sent somebody to asses whether it was a shared sewer with another property (though I had already sent them the survey that confirmed this). Managed to talk him through it over the phone, and he went away to make his report.

And then today... I get a 'Notice to Carry Works Out On Your Land' 7 day notice to perform a 'cover replacement kitchen floor' (attached).



On the face of it, this is quite good. We are finally moving towards getting it resolved, and the water company have accepted that it is their asset to fix.

On the flip side though, I'm beginning to wonder what state the kitchen/house(?) once the work is complete.

Here are two photos of the area where the work needs doing. It's not the largest space...



My understanding is that they will be fitting a double sealed vacuum inspection chamber.

Does anybody know what this would involve and the likelihood of them being able to do this with starting to take cabinets and/or joists out?

If they do end up trashing the kitchen, do I have any comeback on either the water company to put the damage right, or via my insurers trace and access style clauses?

Many thanks!

 

[Keithmac]

I thought you weren't allowed to have any sort of manhole underneath a floor?.

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Thames have admitted its their asset, and thus their responsibility. Any damage caused by them or their asset is their responsibility. If they trash your kitchen, they are responsible for replacing it.

As for the work, it appears they will be fitting a double sealed cover, which hopefully will prevent any future reoccurrence of the internal flooding you experienced earlier this year. As long as they have suitable access to get themselves, the cover and frame, and materials/compounds required to fit this new cover, I cannot see they will need to do anything other than provide a suitably sized hole in your floor to do the work, if the existing access isn't suitable.

Keithmac, in new builds it is not allowed, however anything already in existence cannot be avoided.

 

[Foolish_]

Thanks - reassuring!

In the meantime, off the back of me contacting TW to discuss access to the property, I received an email which read:

"Thames would not replace the internal manhole cover as the issue was not caused by a Thames water asset failing under normal circumstances, but because of sewer abuse."

So, the day after issuing a notice to say they were going to fix it, they tell me they aren't going to fix it.... my head hurts.

A quick google of sewer abuse suggests things like people putting stuff down there that they shouldn't (nappies, fat, etc). Not entirely sure why they seem to have categorised the cause of the issue as abuse. Seems a little fishy that they only decide it was 'sewer abuse' once they realised it served multiple properties, especially given the street drains had blocked three times in the last year, and my drain surveyor reported it was in poor condition, and TW subsequently came to clean it. Sounds like **** maintenance by TW, and smells like a load of crap (pardon the pun) to me. Hopefully just a mix up, but, at the same time, it's probably not

Given they seem to have accepted that it serves multiple properties and therefore is their asset, I'm a bit bemused that they are planning to leave it broken.

Tried to call the CS rep but no answer. Will email and ask to escalate I guess.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Keep on at them. If no joy, try Environmental Health at the local Council, they may be very interested! I'd also mention it to your MP, local Councillor and also OFWAT maybe a way to go.

 

[KenGMac]

Foolish, good evening again.

OK on the face of it, TWs asset has failed,TW have admitted Liability then [when a Boss Noticed] have done an about turn, Sorry but a Public Utility cannot do that, it is not in their code of conduct?

As Hugh Jaleak above just go for them ask TW exactly and precisely what Sewer Abuse has occurred, and more importantly ask them to prove categorically what damage you have occasioned to their asset.

Keep pressing them and ask for proof of your [so called] Sewer Abuse, proof meaning actual CCTV footage Etc.

In the background as Hugh Jaleak has posted contact all of the bodies noted above.

As an aside?
Is the floor in the room still open?
Has all the over-spilled material been removed and the Solumn treated?

Keep the faith go after TW on as many fronts as you can dream up.

Ken.

 

[Foolish_]

I've gone back to them as advised and will let you know how that goes. Hugh / Ken - Thanks for the advice!

Re Ken's Questions:

1. Yes - floor is still open, but covered. There are two holes in the original kitchen floor that I created whilst trying to locate the inspection chanmber. I've had temporary loft flooring down over the top for the last 6 months whilst waiting for them to confirm next steps (ie, whether I can / should fix it, or whether it's there's and not for me to touch).

2. Regarding clean up, they vacuumed up all the liquid at the time of the flood. Nothing further was done though regarding cleaning out any material. At the time they said it was a fault inside my property and for me to find/fix/clean up. When I finally located the cause of the flooding, the IC's cover was still mainly attached, so I don't think anything other than that liquid sewage got out. The underfloor has collected a lot of white mold though which I've asked them to remedy but got nowhere with. They told me to take that up with my insurance.

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

I'd speak to Environmental Health at the local Council, an external flooding situation should have been properly cleaned up and disinfected, never mind an internal flood! Wont cost anything to talk to EH, and getting them on side maybe a powerful ally.

Also, local Media. Utility companies hate bad publicity. Cadent Gas recently closed the main road out of town, locals, instead of following the signed diversion, knew the short cut, through the back streets. My road has cars parked along both sides, and was like a racetrack, as drivers were speeding along, trying to get to the end before someone came the other way. Meanwhile days went by, with no-one actually on site doing any work! An email to '[email protected]' showed they didn't, as the promised response from the site manager never came. Post on their corporate Facebook page though soon got a reply, and they suddenly found a team and cancelled other jobs to get on with this one!

 

[Keithmac]

Complaining on their Twitter and Facebook pages normally gets the best results as said above!.

 

[Mottie]

I always find that an email addressed personally to the CEO stating that you will be in the vicinity of the head office next week and will be dropping in to discuss the matter personally with him/her about your problem soon gets results. They don’t like unannounced drop-ins from irate consumers and a lackey will be swiftly deployed to assist you.

 

[HERTS P&D]

I have in the past sent an email to my local MP, the problem was sorted within a week.

Andy

 

[Ian H]

I did a repair last year after our place was mentioned in the paper, it had no effect on our response time and there was much more to the story than the paper made out.

 

[Foolish_]

Hi All,

Finally managed to get Thames to take responsibility and come around to try and sort things out. Some good new was that access wasn't an issue, though things haven't quite gone as I was expecting.

Recall original the original clay chamber, round inspection chamber...



I was expecting them to seal it with an air tight / leak proof cover, but instead got the following:



Not quite the water tight setup I has hoping for... more like an unsealed oversized square cover, placed a top of a round hole, cemented to the dirt floor

Just for fun, they also managed to drop cement into the junction:


I honestly never thought I'd find myself poking things with sticks and hoping that they were the neighbours poop.

I'll go back to Thames again and start reading the riot act. As was suggested above, this is environmental services time.

Does anybody have any thoughts on how hard it might be to remove that cement without damaging the drains? I think I'm one neighbouring wet wipe away from a new sewage flood

Thanks

 

[Ian H]

Very easy to remove.

They should have moved it but to be fair to them whoever put the manhole there is the one that needs a *******ing.

There’s not much else they could have done, the lid they have fitted is much better than the round one that it will have replaced.