Pulling new circuits in a fitted kitchen

[ban-all-sheds]

Clearly the first reply was helpful but those since including your own has really added no value. Simply saying 'ask an electrician' doesn't appear to be in the vein of the spirit of the forum and the nature of DIY.

The issue is not one of DIYing or not.

It is that you are using an electrician.

And that electrician will be required to sign this:

I being the person responsible for the Design, Construction, Inspection & Testing of the electrical installation (as indicated by my signature below), particulars of which are described above, having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the Design, Construction, Inspection & Testing, hereby CERTIFY that the said work for which I have been responsible is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS 7671:2008 amended to 2011 except for the departures, if any, detailed as follows:

And to declare to your local Building Control people that he did it all and that it all complied with the Building Regulations.

If nothing else it would be rude of you to get other people to make design suggestions and decisions which you then present to him as a fait accompli.

Worst case is that (for whatever reason) you do something he isn't happy with and you have to rip it out. If he won't sign the certificates you'll be up S.C. with no paddle.

 

[riveralt]

As for the documentation that you have insisted on then I cannot provide all that. I know the electrician is registered and I have receipts for his work. I am sure he would not jeopardise his business and livelihood by completing work which is illegal and not upto spec.

If he is registered and fitted your new Consumer Unit then he broken the requirements of his competent scheme by not providing you with a completed Electrical Installation Certificate, Schedule of Inspections and Schedule of Test Results and additionally he should have registered the work with the Local Authority Building Control verifying that his work meets current Building Regulations. Receipts mean didly squat.

As for jeopardising his business, the very fact he is an 'arms length' electrician and leaves you to ask critical design and installation questions on a public diy forum means that he is doing just that. Perhaps the fact that you haven't received the appropriate certificates and building authority control authorisation tells you and everyone else reading this that he is not a registered electrician.

 

[ikearns]

That statement says they are "RESPONSIBLE" for the Design etc, it doesnt say that have to be the source or origin. It also is a declaration that they certify the work. There is nothing that says that certain parts of the work cannot be completed by another party but need to be checked prior to certification. This would be akin to one of his own employees completing the same work that I am doing where that employee is not a registered or skilled electrician but simply someone whom they have with them to do necessary unskilled work.

If I did do something that he wasnt happy with and I had to rip it out then I quite rightly deserve to be a] out of pocket and b] be inconvenienced as the work needs to be redone however this is why I am making attempts to ensure the work I agree with him and options that I suggest to him (from information found online including this forum) is in the best interest to both of us.

It would also be rude for me to complete any work without his knowledge but I discuss all work I do which to date consists of:-

1] pulling earth bonding from front gas meter and rear water ingress to new consumer unit
2] pull new cable from consumer unit to outside building for outdoor circuit
3] pulling new 10mm cable from new consumer unit to kitchen
3] propose extension of new kitchen cable run to dishwasher and plinth heater which is included in this post

The above work has not included any termination of wiring nor any work which is considered skilled. All has been completed under the electricians guidance and consideration.

My enquiries to this forum are not only to assist my electrician (in the event I can save him time whilst on the job) but also to clarify that any conversation I have with him is what others consider to be best practise and most viable to get the job done. Whilst I trust the actions and advice of my electrician it doesnt always mean that in every instance I am getting what others might consider the best advice.

People are entitled to their opinion but so far I have been accused of falsifying the fact that I am using a registered electrician, that I am completing work that breaks building regulations and also that open statements I have made are untruthful - all this from a community within a DIY forum that is meant to be public spirited and willing to assist.

Only two reply posts in this thread actually address the question I posed. The others are tantamount to bullying and slander.

 

[ikearns]

Perhaps the fact that you haven't received the appropriate certificates and building authority control authorisation tells you and everyone else reading this that he is not a registered electrician.

Well unless he is a complete charlatan and has falsified the trade details on his vehicle and also his paperwork to me then he is going to great lengths to appear legit. I have also spoken to the trade counter at the supplier that he uses and they have a high opinion of him as well.

So as far as I am aware, he is registered and has references.

When I chose him above other electricians who quoted for the initial first job then there were certainly others who appeared to want to take shortcuts and not willing to work within the confines of the job and therefore they didnt get the gig.

 

[riveralt]

My enquiries to this forum are not only to assist my electrician (in the event I can save him time whilst on the job) but also to clarify that any conversation I have with him is what others consider to be best practise and most viable to get the job done.

So you don't trust your electrican then?

Whilst I trust the actions and advice of my electrician it doesnt always mean that in every instance I am getting what others might consider the best advice.

So, in reality, you really don't trust your electrician then?

People are entitled to their opinion but so far I have been accused of falsifying the fact that I am using a registered electrician,

A fact re-enforce by the lack of certificates - therefore suggesting that whatever this person is he is not a complying the requirements of a registered electrician.

that I am completing work that breaks building regulations

The reality is you are in terms of lack of notification to your LABC and/or a building control notice from your 'registered' electricians competent persons scheme.

 

[riveralt]

Perhaps the fact that you haven't received the appropriate certificates and building authority control authorisation tells you and everyone else reading this that he is not a registered electrician.

Well unless he is a complete charlatan and has falsified the trade details on his vehicle and also his paperwork to me then he is going to great lengths to appear legit. I have also spoken to the trade counter at the supplier that he uses and they have a high opinion of him as well.

For heavens sake man - no Electrical Certificates or Local Authority Building Control Notification that should tell you how legit he is.

 

[ikearns]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and no doubt you are the sort of person who has immense self-belief and discount those considerations of others. I trust my electrician however I ask questions to increase my own personal knowledge.

I would hazard a guess that those that have replied with nothing but critical comments are trade who feel that those DIY-ers whom are willing to undertake unskilled work and save money are taking money from electricians pockets by minimising costs.

Continue to post and poison this thread if you want but clearly there are people out there who are more helpful than yourself.

 

[ikearns]

fortunately I have seen there is an 'ignore' function within the forum - must be there for a reason!

 

[Chri5]

As was mentioned in one of the 1st posts, some would simply run the cable at the back of the cabinets on the floor.

Provided there's no rats or vermin, and that you will have plinths covering the front of the cabinets- the cable then is in a void, and as such is an acceptable way to do the job.

OK ideally clip or conduit would be nice, but since the cable is in a 'void' and has no need of support due to it being on the floor there's nothing illegal with that.

As also mentioned flexible conduit (copex) would provide a physical barrier, an oversleeve to the cable. The cable could be threaded through and then the copex simply laid behind the rear cabinet legs, again resting on the floor. At a push you could reach under and cable tie the conduit to the rear cabinet legs simply to give it a fixed route.

Will all like things to be done in the perfect way, but I can assure you a very high percentage of kitchen wiring done post cabinet fixing is simple loose lay.

The important bit is the surface points to the sockets or end connection, ideally buried / capped or surface conduit / trunking. But for all that clipped direct isn't illegal, just unsightly and with a greater risk of damage due to low mechinical protection.

 

[ikearns]

Thanks Chri5

That is excellent. I am keen to protect the cable and it was mentioned by the electrician that putting it in some protection was beneficial.

Fortunately we are rodent free and the space is clean, dry and tidy. The tiled floor of the kitchen extends under the cupboards so this appears to be the best option

 

[bernardgreen]

Provided there's no rats or vermin, and that you will have plinths covering the front of the cabinets- the cable then is in a void, and as such is an acceptable way to do the job.

OK ideally clip or conduit would be nice, but since the cable is in a 'void' and has no need of support due to it being on the floor there's nothing illegal with that.

It is NOT a good idea to have cable laying on a kitchen floor unless one can 100% ensure that floor cleaning liquids and other fluids cannot reach the cable.

I would hazard a guess that those that have replied with nothing but critical comments are trade who feel that those DIY-ers whom are willing to undertake unskilled work and save money are taking money from electricians pockets by minimising costs.

The criticism is critical but CONSTRUCTIVE. There is very little objection to people doing DIY work and help is given but that help HAS to include the warnings that un-authorised and / or un certified DIY work can create serious legal and/or financial problems for the house owner in the future. It is a financial disaster if an insurance claim for a burnt out kitchen is rejected or reduced by 50% or more because there is no certificate to prove the electrical work was properly carried out. And it doesn't need to have been an electrical fault that caused the fire for the insurance company to reduce the payout.

 

[ikearns]

Hi bernardgreen

Thanks for the comments.

I have spoken to the electrician and a single continuous length of conduit from the kitchen consumer unit to the device socket / switch will ensure there should be no external fluids or interference (unless or course it is broken for some reason).

If I can get a clip on the conduit to the skirting then I will to stop it from moving.

I have no objections someone pointing out the hazards and the requirements but to be badgered repeatedly and called a liar is beyond constructive

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As for the documentation that you have insisted on then I cannot provide all that. I know the electrician is registered

Easy enough to check here: http://www.competentperson.co.uk

And I think you should.....

and I have receipts for his work. I am sure he would not jeopardise his business and livelihood by completing work which is illegal and not upto spec.

Well, we know as an absolute fact that he has contravened the Wiring Regulations and broken the law.

You have no certificates from him so there is absolutely no way you can dispute that.

Well unless he is a complete charlatan and has falsified the trade details on his vehicle and also his paperwork to me then he is going to great lengths to appear legit.

Would it surprise you to find that if he has then he is not alone?

There are people out there falsely claiming to be members of NICEIC etc. They do have fake paperwork. They do have fake signage on their vans.

But as I said - you can easily check, and you should, for he is behaving very strangely for a genuinely registered electrician. Not giving you an EIC is a contravention of the Wiring Regulations. Not notifying the work to LABC (which would have got you a completion certificate from his scheme) is a criminal offence.

Both of those are facts, whether you like it or not.

Maybe the actual work he has done is fine, but if he didn't test it properly he doesn't know that, and with no certificates from him you don't know it.

And the omens are not the best.

I have also spoken to the trade counter at the supplier that he uses and they have a high opinion of him as well.

They have a high opinion of him as a customer. They can't have any idea about the quality of his work, and the people who work there are not electricians.

So as far as I am aware, he is registered

Click.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That statement says they are "RESPONSIBLE" for the Design etc, it doesnt say that have to be the source or origin.

Did you read the part which says

"...having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the Design, Construction, Inspection & Testing..."

?

This would be akin to one of his own employees completing the same work that I am doing where that employee is not a registered or skilled electrician but simply someone whom they have with them to do necessary unskilled work.

That works when it is an electrical business which is registered, as a legal entity, and the electrician in person is the, or one of the, qualified supervisors.

But you are not an employee of a business like that so it is not the same.

If the electrician is happy for you to do things under his supervision and direction, as if you were his apprentice or labourer etc, then that's fine, but then we come back to what I at least have been saying all along, what you do has to be under his supervision and direction, not decided on by you with input from people on an Internet forum.

People are entitled to their opinion but so far I have been accused of ... completing work that breaks building regulations

Which you are doing if you are not working under the supervision and direction of a registered electrician who is taking responsibility for everything you do and every decision you make.

I would hazard a guess that those that have replied with nothing but critical comments are trade who feel that those DIY-ers whom are willing to undertake unskilled work and save money are taking money from electricians pockets by minimising costs.

Well you certainly can't include me in that.

 

[Chri5]

Provided there's no rats or vermin, and that you will have plinths covering the front of the cabinets- the cable then is in a void, and as such is an acceptable way to do the job.

Bernard mentioned

It is NOT a good idea to have cable laying on a kitchen floor unless one can 100% ensure that floor cleaning liquids and other fluids cannot reach the cable

.

Bernard lets get back to the real world, are you saying that you despute that the majority do just as I say?
Or that the regs do not allow for the method I mentioned?

I did caveat my reply with the word "ideally"- but what I suggest is not illegal, is done very frequently and certainly isn't outside the regs.

Plinths hide all sorts, with rubber seal bases and a flat floor how is anything liquid likely to travel under and then erode the cables?

Accepted if someone were stupid enough to leave an open joint, but a few generic TE's are not in any way likely to be a problem.

I like your posts, but please lets not argue the toss between ideal and what is done in less than perfect shell 1st fix.