PWA question for retaining wall butting up to party fence

[Ivor Windybottom]

I don't see how it's got anything at all to do with the neighbours. But I'd want to carefully remove the fence panels before digging out to reduce the wind load just in case it gets blustery.

Honestly my approach would be to just treat them like you and they are reasonable people. Send them a nice letter enclosing the plans and explain that you don't think that an agreement is necessary but you'd like to have the panels removed as a precaution during the work, and want to let your neighbours know what you're doing and that it's all been designed carefully. Emphasise that you'll ensure everything is put back as-was from their side and you'll accept responsibility in the unlikely event of there being an issue. Get photos of all the cracks and issues that are already there before you start.

They may have got wound up over the years, wondering what you're up to. I'd be concerned if my neighbour was digging out against my wall without telling me.

There's a risk they may run off to building control with your plans, but if so then cross that bridge when you get to it. The world won't end if they get involved, it looks like your plans have been very carefully designed.

 

[martygturner]

Personally I think you are over thinking it...its your wall not a party wall as you built it, ie the extra walls in your photo, did you serve a pwa when you did that ? If not you have already taken the risk.

In essence its a risk analysis, cost to you if you serve a pwa and get bogged down...prices are rising what would 6 months wait do to your costs and if they play dirty what would two surveys cost if they appoint there own. Verses getting on a doing it and rebuilding the wall if it fails.

all that a pwa does is it sets the current state of the wall in stone, so if your neighbours say our wall was damaged then there is a record of how much damage needs to be put right.

So what happens if you don't serve a pwa...well nothing in reality, you will have to reinstate the wall, which you would have to under a pwa... so you are in the same situation.

Then there is the mob that say your neighbour can sue you or take an injunction out, except all those costs are your neighbours they cannot reclaim them from you, currently to get an injunction to court its about 3k, court fees, prelim hearing, barrister + solicitors costs. and unless there is danger to life will take longer than it takes to get on and build the extension.

Basically if you don't serve a pwa then the neighbour has to enforce their rights through the courts...and as that is rebuild the wall which you would do in any case they will be paying a shed load of money for nothing, right up to the court doors and a judgement they do not get to claim costs, you could just say ok, then all their costs are borne by them. This risk will be pointed out to them....

PWA are mostly just a joke.

I also wonder if this new retaining wall would in fact be deemed an engineering operation, and therefore not PD.

What? engineering operation...what exactly is building something.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Have they built their garden up, or have you carved yours into an existing hill? If the latter then you may be digging below the footing of the existing wall.

 

[^woody^]

What? engineering operation...what exactly is building something.

A reinforced wall cantilevered on a reinforced foundation that is retaining soil = engineering operation under planning law

 

[martygturner]

A reinforced wall cantilevered on a reinforced foundation that is retaining soil = engineering operation under planning law

What ? All buildings require engineering, there is nothing special under planning law regarding engineering operations did you mean under building regulations ? The town and country planning act 1990( revised 2024) sets the distinction, planning is the preserve of planners, their duty is to ensure that development is regularised ( ie in accordance with statute and local plans) in its location, size, visual appearance etc. Building control operates under the Building act 1984, to ensure that a building and its associated works complies with statuary guidance and current building regs. These are not the same thing.

Under planning law you could get approval for say a house on stilts, building control would then assume responsibility for ensure that it does not collapse.

 

[^woody^]

What ? All buildings require engineering, there is nothing special under planning law regarding engineering operations did you mean under building regulations ? The town and country planning act 1990( revised 2024) sets the distinction, planning is the preserve of planners, their duty is to ensure that development is regularised ( ie in accordance with statute and local plans) in its location, size, visual appearance etc. Building control operates under the Building act 1984, to ensure that a building and its associated works complies with statuary guidance and current building regs. These are not the same thing.

Under planning law you could get approval for say a house on stilts, building control would then assume responsibility for ensure that it does not collapse.

You may not find this on Google search.

Under planning law, there is concept of Operational Development and a sub-division of that is engineering operations (ie stuff that is not building extensions), and engineering operations are not permitted development.

 

[JayBo1979]

We already have building control approval so should be ok.

We did tell the neighbours about the previous work in the retaining wall. The issues have arisen with our planning applications and their numerous (9) sets of non-sensical and entirely untrue objections. Hence now going down the PD route

I dont want to serve a party wall notice if not needed as sure they will make it difficult/expansive. So will instead issue a letter prior to commencing work explaining the details of the project and what we will be doing at the boundary etc

Thank

J

 

[noseall]

We already have building control approval so should be ok.

Planning Permission and BC approval are both different and distinct in their scrutiny processes.

Building Control will look at the working drawings and go through their engineers checking process, to either find fault or just tick the box and say fine. Repercussions are just placed back at the Designers'/Structural Engineers' feet and asked to revise.

Planning is a different animal. They will either say yes or no as to whether they approve the way the building looks or will affect the surroundings. They may say yes - but with conditions attached. You need Planning Permission long before the designer produces working drawings.

Permitted Development means you by-pass the whole planning approval process as long as the building fits the criteria. Civil engineering work is not PD.

 

[JayBo1979]

We already have prior approval for a larger extension under PD and have submitted the architect and engineers drawings to building control which have also been approved

 

[martygturner]

Operational Development and a sub-division of that is engineering operations

No woody engineering operations are those that are in the engineering field, eg dams, embankments etc not retaining walls. these are firmly in the building sphere as they are allied to building work. It is not a structure that has any other use.. ie you need planning for an engineering work otherwise anybody could chuck up a dam or two.

 

[noseall]

No woody engineering operations are those that are in the engineering field, eg dams, embankments etc not retaining walls. these are firmly in the building sphere as they are allied to building work. It is not a structure that has any other use.. ie you need planning for an engineering work otherwise anybody could chuck up a dam or two.

Not strictly true, especially where Public Liability insurance is concerned.

 

[JayBo1979]

Going a bit off topic here guys but thanks for the advice!

 

[^woody^]

No woody engineering operations are those that are in the engineering field, eg dams, embankments etc

You forgot scaffold, yes scaffold. And reinforced cantilever retaining walls ..... designed by engineers to boot.

 

[^woody^]

Going a bit off topic here guys but thanks for the advice!

It's the rules, don't blame us.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Oooh, a pedantic argument. I'm pretty sure this is the first time ever on the internet.

I dont want to serve a party wall notice if not needed as sure they will make it difficult/expansive. So will instead issue a letter prior to commencing work explaining the details of the project and what we will be doing at the boundary etc

Good plan. Keep it polite, friendly and non-stroppy (despite what you really want to say!).

Good luck.