Question for the Gas Guy's Re Condemned Gas Fire

[Phill Peck]

Bg don't do remedial flue works. It's in the T&Cs

 

[TCCHeating]

Fireworks and party popper still on standby Mike.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Fireworks and party popper still on standby Mike.

Make sure you come dressed up like an ugly evil witch!

(You are on a witch hunting expedition) BTW these forums should be renamed more appropriately as "Plumbing & Witch Hunting" and Combustion Chamber should be named "The Witches Den"

 

[ollski]

This is a bit of a strange thread. Have read hundreds of posts on here recently about how important it is to get an annual service to detect developing faults. This customer has had annual services and in this one a dangerous fault has developed, been identified and remedied. Why all the second guessing the engineer?
On the bg side of things if the fire is on an annual service only contract then it has had a service and been isolated due to its dangerous condition.
If its on an appliance care contract then bg will come back and remove it for the sweep and reconnect it again and test after no problems.

 

[FiremanT]

I have always been careful about advising my clients to cancel an annual policy for boilers, as sods law dictates an expensive repair will immediately ensue, and for old people the benefit is the (perceived) ability to have immediate attention. I do, however advise everyone NOT to use BG etc for a gas fire service. And this case is a good example. BG guys DO NOT offer the full service, and defo do not climb ladders. Find a local guy and stick to him.

Are you kidding?, in my bg days I spent an hour and a half minimum removing, cleaning the fire, stripping burner, injectors, checking flue through the entire length, flue flow and spillage with all the tumble driers etc etc etc. I have never ever seen an rgi up a ladder inspecting a cowl.

Olski, I was careful to say that I don't condemn other RGI's wantonly. However, I will make a few points.

1 - I do go up ladders and clear terminals. UIAM BG guys do not climb ladders

2 - BG use loads of contractors at £20.02 per job, all in. For that price they get the absolute minimum.

3 - BG and, I assume, their contemporary's do not include faulty flues in their realm of responsibility. you may check the flue, but do you, say, strip a RTA to clear debris?

4 - My favorite example of BG fire servicing was a few years ago. Fire on annual service, I went to fit a new fire, so removed old. The closure plate was BEHIND marble panel, and never been removed, Debris piing up, and , very scarily, a flue restrictor in place. (How many, apart from G112, GW and a fewn(oler) others even know what this is?)

5 -The OPs comments suggest that the ST was not carried out correctly

The problem with the contracts is that when the "problem" falls outside the remit, the client is left floundering for a solution as in this case.

I am also perfectly aware that not all RGI's are perfect.

 

[FiremanT]

If I were you (OP) I would be questioning the RGI who tested the fire, the cause of failure and and not question the failure, and what steps he or his company BG will be taking to remedy the cause, since your mother is paying them an arm and a leg each year, so get on to BG, and ask them for an explanation for failure and why all of a sudden the flue appears to be a problem when it hasn't been a problem for the last 35 years, and if it is blocked or ridden with cob webs then who is responsible for cleaning it? a chimney sweeper is not allowed to disconnect gas appliance so how will he be getting access to clean it and if he tries to clean it from the roof, where would all the debri or other things stuck to it fall? will that not cause more problems to your fire if any of that gets into the fire, in other words it should be the responsibility of BG engineer to remove the fire and visually inspect the flue and if necessary clean or sweep it up. I would get on to BG and threaten to cancel the contract if they refuse to do anything about it, and tell them that you are not going the electric route since your mother had spent a fortune on this gas fire and its surround and so on.

Sometimes elderly people are taken for a mug.

MFL: All of the contracts are subject to T&C's. Flues are not part of the fire, so are not covered

 

[TCCHeating]

Fireworks and party popper still on standby Mike.

Make sure you come dressed up like an ugly evil witch!

(You are on a witch hunting expedition) BTW these forums should be renamed more appropriately as "Plumbing & Witch Hunting" and Combustion Chamber should be named "The Witches Den"

I think if you look back at my post history it is very rare that I feel it necessary to join a 'witch hunt' mate. But if that's how you feel then that's fine by me.

Can you remind me again of what qualifications you have to enable yourself to comment on posts relating to gas fires? Or gas related posts in general?

Just asking because looking at your post history it seems that you are knowledgeable in many trades:

Roofing and guttering
Gardening
Electrics both in and outside of the UK
Audio visual
Cars and car maintenance
Woodwork and carpentry
Building
Appliances
Floors stairs and lofts.

Just where do you find the time to fit in studying plumbing and heating as well as gas when you are already juggling all your other careers?

 

[ollski]

1 - I do go up ladders and clear terminals. UIAM BG guys do not climb ladders

2 - BG use loads of contractors at £20.02 per job, all in. For that price they get the absolute minimum.

3 - BG and, I assume, their contemporary's do not include faulty flues in their realm of responsibility. you may check the flue, but do you, say, strip a RTA to clear debris?

4 - My favorite example of BG fire servicing was a few years ago. Fire on annual service, I went to fit a new fire, so removed old. The closure plate was BEHIND marble panel, and never been removed, Debris piing up, and , very scarily, a flue restrictor in place. (How many, apart from G112, GW and a fewn(oler) others even know what this is?)

5 -The OPs comments suggest that the ST was not carried out correctly

The problem with the contracts is that when the "problem" falls outside the remit, the client is left floundering for a solution as in this case.

I am also perfectly aware that not all RGI's are perfect.

1 - I take my hat off to you, I have never ever heard of anyone doing this before. Bg or anyone else I know.

2 - May be the case in some areas, was never when I was there (1 in 40) and is still the case from what I hear although the payment is considerably higher depending on the terms.

3 - correct, only horizontal for repairs but check all.

4 - if its unremovable what can you do except for at risk it depending on the other tests?

5 - Maybe, I read it as the flue pulled with the match in the throat of the flue and failed in the test position....who knows?

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Fireworks and party popper still on standby Mike.

Make sure you come dressed up like an ugly evil witch!

(You are on a witch hunting expedition) BTW these forums should be renamed more appropriately as "Plumbing & Witch Hunting" and Combustion Chamber should be named "The Witches Den"

I think if you look back at my post history it is very rare that I feel it necessary to join a 'witch hunt' mate. But if that's how you feel then that's fine by me.

Can you remind me again of what qualifications you have to enable yourself to comment on posts relating to gas fires? Or gas related posts in general?

Just asking because looking at your post history it seems that you are knowledgeable in many trades:

Roofing and guttering
Gardening
Electrics both in and outside of the UK
Audio visual
Cars and car maintenance
Woodwork and carpentry
Building
Appliances
Floors stairs and lofts.

Just where do you find the time to fit in studying plumbing and heating as well as gas when you are already juggling all your other careers?

Did I advise anyone on gas related repair work? besides do i have to be qualified to refer to someone to seek expert advice on any matter that requires qualified gas engineer, this chap was having a water leak and my advice to him was to use push fit cap, and through experience I have seen these caps fly off causing flooding, I have taken pictures where that happened to back up my claim, this was due to the fact the collet ring was not pulled out properly to lock the cap in securely, so these caps is not just pushing them on, there is a also a need to lock them in, failing which can cause them to fly off.

My experience outshines any qualifications.

 

[Dan Robinson]

My experience outshines any qualifications

Evidently not.

 

[FiremanT]

1 - I do go up ladders and clear terminals. UIAM BG guys do not climb ladders

2 - BG use loads of contractors at £20.02 per job, all in. For that price they get the absolute minimum.

3 - BG and, I assume, their contemporary's do not include faulty flues in their realm of responsibility. you may check the flue, but do you, say, strip a RTA to clear debris?

4 - My favorite example of BG fire servicing was a few years ago. Fire on annual service, I went to fit a new fire, so removed old. The closure plate was BEHIND marble panel, and never been removed, Debris piing up, and , very scarily, a flue restrictor in place. (How many, apart from G112, GW and a fewn(oler) others even know what this is?)

5 -The OPs comments suggest that the ST was not carried out correctly

The problem with the contracts is that when the "problem" falls outside the remit, the client is left floundering for a solution as in this case.

I am also perfectly aware that not all RGI's are perfect.

1 - I take my hat off to you, I have never ever heard of anyone doing this before. Bg or anyone else I know.

I am not saying that I do this on every job, obviously. But where there is spillage problems, ans access is not an issue apart from the use of ladders, then I am certain I am not unique in checking and clearing terminals

2 - May be the case in some areas, was never when I was there (1 in 40) and is still the case from what I hear although the payment is considerably higher depending on the terms.

1 in 40? You mean 1 contractor per 40 direct?
I did a few weeks 18 months or so ago. Standard payment of £20.02 per completed appliance. IIRC there was about 15% uplift for London

3 - correct, only horizontal for repairs but check all.
The problem is that the client is then left having to find someone else when the work falls outside the scope of the contract. I am not suggesting that anyone should do repairs inside a standard service job charge, but most RGIs would rectify.

4 - if its unremovable what can you do except for at risk it depending on the other tests?
In this case, it was clear the fire had not even been removed, and no evidence tat it was AR'd. But, again, I, and I would hope, other RGIs would have cut out the plate, sealed the gap, and fitted a new plate.

5 - Maybe, I read it as the flue pulled with the match in the throat of the flue and failed in the test position....who knows?
As I said, we weren't there, so cannot condemn a man on the writings of a customer. But I detect no malice in the OP's comments. And his reference to the test passing inside the fire, but not outside leads me to wonder if the test was completed properly.

 

[bernardgreen]

My experience outshines any qualifications.

Provided there is also the ability to learn from experience then in many cases experience together with that ability to learn ( self educate ) can "outshine" a qualification that relates to the holder having been trained in the subject matter.

Training and education are not the same thing. People can be trained to carry out a function but that need not ( and often does not ) include any education as to why those actions are necessary or why they have to be performed in way that the training dictates.

Pigeons could be trained to guide bombs in WWII ( http://www.bfskinner.org/project-pigeon/ ) but had they been educated in the task they may not have been so keen to take the food used as a reward.

 

[ollski]

Fireman I really do respect your work ethic. Some of that work I would certainly class as remedial though and not part of a service unless you are costing service work accordingly.

 

[DaveHerns]

It's unfortunate BG personnel have got a reputation for not being the best and having targets for condemning old appliances to sell new ones. Perhaps we're being unfair to them

 

[gas112]

bg do not sell fires so why would they condemn one