Questions about storage rads.

[BlueLoo]

Brilliant responses, thanks very much.

Blue Loo..... I'd love to but electrical 'wet' systems don't impress me much. Would help if she was a good tenant and paid her rent on time!

EFL........ I had assumed that the heating circuit would be 2.5 cable like the ring main but from what you say it must be, say 4.0?

Thoughts arising from your advice may be to replace the rads with good quality wall mounted convectors and hard wire them as I proposed in my previous post. Cheap and cheerful but sounds to me that it would meet the regs.

Your cheap might not be your Tennant's cheerful.

Wether your tennant pays on time, late, or not at all, you've a responsibility (well, morally if not anything else) to make sure your letting is reasonable.

Would you live there?

And would you let a unqualified landlord fanny around with electric in your house?

If you think I'm being a bit harsh, you would be correct. I hate BTL's as most i have come across are clueless, incompetant and cheap.

Your posts so far tick those three boxes.

 

[flameport]

Could they be any good?

No, overpriced junk.

The only benefit of storage heaters is that they are cheaper to run, as they use cheaper electricity overnight - but they do involve heating the property all day, which some people may not need.

Any other form of electric heating which is just switched on when needed will cost the same to run.
Some types which contain oil, bricks, gel or whatever else will take longer to heat up but continue to release heat for a while when switched off.
Others such as convectors and fan heaters start heating immediately, but also stop immediately when off.
The actual heat provided compared to the electrical energy used is identical for all of them.

Plenty of companies selling overpriced devices which claim otherwise, the usual things are that they contain special ceramics, gels, aluminium from Italy, have controls so they are only on for 15 minutes each hour, magic thermostats which save 50% and so on. It's 100% lies.

The savings from snake oil heaters compared to old storage heaters are from where people are out most of the day, and only switch the heaters on for a couple of hours in the evening.
However the exact same savings will apply to any heater.

This 2kW convector heater for £23: https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9190629
will provide the exact same amount of heat as this £500+ item: https://www.heatershop.co.uk/electrorad-af05-aeroflow

Before you make any changes to the heating system, you must establish how that will affect the EPC rating for the property - as if it's too low, you won't be able to let it.

 

[ericmark]

I do remember some council houses in a place called Lixum where the bricks were central to the house and the user could start or stop fans to distribute the heat, a guy who lived in one said he could turn off heating and a week latter with a cold patch there was still heat left, but in the main storage heating never really worked. The units were simply too small to retain the heat, so home too warm in day and cold at night.

There has been a move to use water to store heat, mainly connecting to solar panels or wood burners, to run a wood burner efficiently with no particular emissions it needs to run at a set rate, so twin large water tanks used to store the heat, but extremely expensive.

Economy 7 or economy 10 is a tariff, not a system, originally used white meters, but over time these were replaced with many different ways of turning it on/off at the correct times, often linked to radio 4 time signal, except in Scotland the system has been phased out, and the difference between peak and off peak has also reduced where old systems still in use.

Much is down to life style, for some one retired like me in a well insulated home they may work, but where the occupants are out during the day, then often simple electric fires are cheaper to run, specially if poor insulation.

The problem to replace storage heaters is space, a boiler, heat pump, wood burner, all need to go some where, and in a small property often not space for it to go. The water store is heavy, and although they clearly work, again in the main home needs to have been designed to take them.

As to "not controllable enough" I would think most central heating could have that label, but we compromise, and in the main compromise is between cost to install and cost to use, a quick internet hunt comes up with "Creda Heating TPRIII125E TPRIIIE Series White LOT20 Compliant Slimline Panel Heater With Programmable Room Temperature, 7 Day Timer & Electronic Thermostat IP24 1.25kW" at £135 which would likely heat the home, how many would depend on size, and are clearly controllable, but I would not want to pay for the electric.

To fit some thing like a heat pump takes time and money, and also better with empty premises, so the sort of thing done between tenants. But unless a heat pump, it does not matter what electric heater is used, running costs will likely be the same. So only difference between a panel heater and oil filled radiator is really what they look like.

 

[JohnW2]

I do remember some council houses in a place called Lixum where the bricks were central to the house ....

No external walls?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Oh yes oil heaters may be cheaper to run I use one myself, but unless they have a flue the home can get very damp, this may look good, but I would not want one.

 

[ericmark]

No external walls?

Kind Regards, John

Very funny, seems it did work, wonder if still used today? Would not think so.

 

[JohnW2]

Very funny, seems it did work, wonder if still used today? Would not think so.

Quite so..

.... a guy who lived in one said he could turn off heating and a week latter with a cold patch there was still heat left...

As we know, even without fans storage heaters do not successfully store heat for even 24 hours, so I think that ';a week' is pretty far-fetched.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnD]

Quite so..
As we know, even without fans storage heaters do not successfully store heat for even 24 hours, so I think that ';a week' is pretty far-fetched.

Kind Regards, John

IIRC it was "Electricaire" system that had a big insulated concrete heat store in the middle of the house, with warm air blown to rooms through ducts as required.

With a 4-up, 4-down house, ducts from the central store could be very short.

Last time I looked there were a couple of specialist companies doing parts and service on them. I should think the only moving parts would be the fans and the timer.

Edit
I remember now

A common cause of failure was washable dust filters that were clogged solid after not having been cleaned for 50 years.

Until recently they were still being made by Dimplex and one model had a 100kWh storage capacity. About the size of a large Fridge-Freezer.

 

[SUNRAY]

If you think I'm being a bit harsh, you would be correct. I hate BTL's as most i have come across are clueless, incompetant and cheap.

As a BTL landlord I hate contractors as most I've come across seem to think they can double the price and do a less than ideal job, the next problem then is ****ing my tenants off when subsequent visits are required, invariably for me to put things right.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I do remember some council houses in a place called Lixum where the bricks were central to the house and the user could start or stop fans to distribute the heat, a guy who lived in one said he could turn off heating and a week latter with a cold patch there was still heat left, but in the main storage heating never really worked. The units were simply too small to retain the heat, so home too warm in day and cold at night.

They worked at their best in shops, offices and similar, where the heat was needed during the day. As above, they are too small to be insulated effectively, to retain enough heat for use in the evening, the time when most homes are occupied and the heat really needed, though they did improve in ability over the years.

 

[BlueLoo]

As a BTL landlord I hate contractors as most I've come across seem to think they can double the price and do a less than ideal job, the next problem then is ****ing my tenants off when subsequent visits are required, invariably for me to put things right.

You get what you pay for?

(Applies to the renter as well in rare instances)

 

[SUNRAY]

delete double post

 

[SUNRAY]

We have a 2 bed, 80's build flat on 2nd floor. No gas available. Backstory is that we've operated it as a BTL for 10 years or more, no real probs.

Just before Christmas tenant phones to say "The heating isn't working." We provided some oil filled rads to meet the emergency until I could get over there & take a look properly but in the meantime she also phones the Council Enforcement people who serve an Enforcement Notice that the Storage Rads are not a suitable form of heating (even if fixed) because they are not controllable enough.

I 'm pretty savvy with DIY stuff although I have never worked on these rads before. I also know that these are not people to cross if you can help it!

Firstly, how are these supposed to work - They are apparently 'Economy 7'?
The incoming power seems quite neat, there's a dedicated consumer unit for them, each rad with its own 'breaker.' Second question is whether the heating circuit should be powered up at all times or only when the electricity is determined to be off peak?
Also, As a test for the heating unit itself, can I just put a 3 pin plug on and plug it into an ordinary socket? Test purposes only of course.

Finally, the wider question about whether 'ordinary' Storage radiators are suitable for this application these days and if not, what do you use in similar circumstances?

All help greatly appreciated.

As a BTL landlord I understand your dilema. Fortunately I've had very little issue with tenants;
One had been with me for several years then made redundant, went on jobseeker benefits etc with delay before council rent payments which didn't cover full amount... net result over 18 months I was about 2 months money down. He was otherwise an excellent tenant so I took the hit. Still there ten years on.
The other had been in the flat for 3 months and 'escorted from the flat for their own safety' by the police following a drugs fight. I had to replace 2 μPVC windows, 2 internal doors, kitchen units and redecorate (Was fully furbished prior to them moving in).
Other than that 4 properties (for between 28 and 20 years) with very little issue.
Just over a year ago my tenant contacted to say NSH not working (Long story about previous tenant & NSH failures due to drying clothes on them and rust damage supposedly corrected by a contractor etc... prior to her moving in a year before). Total of 3 NSH's but the main unit in lounge had failed but the rust was coming through big time on all of them.
Various suggestions about replacing with panel heaters between tenant, agent, council and myself.

I highly recommend speaking to your EPC inspector before making any changes. Mine explained the benefits of the recent NSH types and alto the energy rating of the property.
Mine recommended replacing the main lounge heater with a Dimplex Quantum RF but removing the smaller NSH in the lounge, the bedroom NSH with a panel heater (the MI's for the room suggestes 1.5KW but I went for a 3KW with the intention of disconnecting 1KW of element for future proofing - the price difference was marginal).

My tenant originally commented the bedroom NSH was fine in the morning but nothing left by bedtime (hence the panel heater), they now say how much better the system is now and she has been working from home from almost the beginning of covid.

As said speak with your ECP inspector for the lowdown, mine was invaluable at comming up with the best outcome.
More detail: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/new-storage-heaters.560821/page-2#post-4837608

EDIT: starting at post#18

 

[SUNRAY]

You get what you pay for?

(Applies to the renter as well in rare instances)

It's exactly the same as insurance jobs in my experience.

I work on the basis of 'if I was living here' and my agents have mentioned I go that bit further. Accordingly they seem to place the better tenants with me and they seem to stay longer.

 

[ericmark]

They worked at their best in shops, offices and similar, where the heat was needed during the day. As above, they are too small to be insulated effectively, to retain enough heat for use in the evening, the time when most homes are occupied and the heat really needed, though they did improve in ability over the years.

Read @JohnD post 23 where he explains how they worked. I agree with @SUNRAY ask the ECP inspector for the lowdown.