I'm not familiar with that particular system, can you tell us how many cores you have between each PIR and the alarm panel (hopefully it will be a system where you have an individual cable for each PIR), also how many wires between the bell box and the alarm panel?
Racal Guardall RLC1 Light Control Unit + compatable PIR
- Thread starter Rosmo22
- Start date
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Hi all,
Sorry for the long delay in posting repair information, I had 2 of these PIR's which were faulty and had only repaired one at the time so I thought that I would wait untill I had done both before posting.
Unit no. 1
These units can be opened up for repair, but the inner silver cube (containing the PCB and PIR sensor) is held together with tape, and the PCB is potted in some horrible slimy wax like stuff.
To get to the components you have to remove this, I tried various solvents, petrol, paraffin, IPA, but none made much difference.
Eventually I found that putting the PCB into an Ultrasonic cleaning tank filled with warm water and washing up liquid did the trick. some agitation with an old toothbrush was also required.
The PCB was then dried out and left on a warm radiator for 2-3 hours.
I then put connected the PCB to 0V (Pin 1 black) and to +12V (Pin 2 red)
and monitored the Trigger output with a Voltmeter connected between pin 1 and Pin 3.
This voltage should be about 9 Volts normally and should drop to less that 1.5Volts when triggered by waving your hand about in front of the sensor.
In this case it worked OK.
I then monitored the Daylight Disable output with a Voltmeter connected between pin 1 and Pin 4.
This voltage should be about 9 Volts in daylight (or bright artificial light) and should drop to less that 1.5Volts when in darkness (or with the phototransistor on the PCB covered with a black object)
This also worked OK.
Reassembling the silver cube into the box and reconnecting the unit to the Lighting system proved that the unit now worked perfectly.
My conclusion is that somehow the wax stuff was upsetting the biasing on the PCB, perhaps it had absorbed some moisture over the years.
Unit no. 2
I carried out the same cleaning procedure as described above, but was disappointed to find that although the Daylight Disable output worked the PIR did not.
First a small capacitor (C11) tuned out to be leaky, but after disconnection of this the PCB still did not detect, I carried out some further tests and it appears that the detector (RPY97) itself is faulty.
This is not now a common part and I have not yet sourced a suitable replacement.
It is possible that I damaged the RPY97 in the ultrasonic tank !
Sorry for the long delay in posting repair information, I had 2 of these PIR's which were faulty and had only repaired one at the time so I thought that I would wait untill I had done both before posting.
Unit no. 1
These units can be opened up for repair, but the inner silver cube (containing the PCB and PIR sensor) is held together with tape, and the PCB is potted in some horrible slimy wax like stuff.
To get to the components you have to remove this, I tried various solvents, petrol, paraffin, IPA, but none made much difference.
Eventually I found that putting the PCB into an Ultrasonic cleaning tank filled with warm water and washing up liquid did the trick. some agitation with an old toothbrush was also required.
The PCB was then dried out and left on a warm radiator for 2-3 hours.
I then put connected the PCB to 0V (Pin 1 black) and to +12V (Pin 2 red)
and monitored the Trigger output with a Voltmeter connected between pin 1 and Pin 3.
This voltage should be about 9 Volts normally and should drop to less that 1.5Volts when triggered by waving your hand about in front of the sensor.
In this case it worked OK.
I then monitored the Daylight Disable output with a Voltmeter connected between pin 1 and Pin 4.
This voltage should be about 9 Volts in daylight (or bright artificial light) and should drop to less that 1.5Volts when in darkness (or with the phototransistor on the PCB covered with a black object)
This also worked OK.
Reassembling the silver cube into the box and reconnecting the unit to the Lighting system proved that the unit now worked perfectly.
My conclusion is that somehow the wax stuff was upsetting the biasing on the PCB, perhaps it had absorbed some moisture over the years.
Unit no. 2
I carried out the same cleaning procedure as described above, but was disappointed to find that although the Daylight Disable output worked the PIR did not.
First a small capacitor (C11) tuned out to be leaky, but after disconnection of this the PCB still did not detect, I carried out some further tests and it appears that the detector (RPY97) itself is faulty.
This is not now a common part and I have not yet sourced a suitable replacement.
It is possible that I damaged the RPY97 in the ultrasonic tank !
B
breezer
monitorman.
So you are saying that in order, to attempt to get an, out of date, no longer made, external P.I.R. to possibly work, you have to buy an ultrasonic cleaner, and there is no g'tee it will work and this should take around 7 months to complete. (I am using yourself as the guide, since it was 7 months since your previous (first) post)
Monitorman, its nothing personal you understand, (no really, its not) its just that what you are saying by your own admission is a complete waste of time.
monitorman, I admire your persistance, but its not really practicable is it.
So, to anyone reading this, if you have a racalite lighting system and it no longer works, tough sh*t, you will have to get a new system which is what i said 4 months ago (also years ago )
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Breezer,
In answer to your points, here is my reply.
"So you are saying that in order, to attempt to get an, out of date, no longer made, external P.I.R. to possibly work, you have to buy an ultrasonic cleaner, and there is no g'tee it will work and this should take around 7 months to complete. (I am using yourself as the guide, since it was 7 months since your previous (first) post)"
1) No, I already had an Ultrasonic cleaner. (They are only about £30 from CPC anyway).
2) As I said in my first post the original unit only took 2 hours to repair, not 7 months!
3) The second unit was a SPARE so elapsed time was not an issue, (it is nice to have a spare on the shelf).
"Monitorman, its nothing personal you understand, (no really, its not) its just that what you are saying by your own admission is a complete waste of time."
I don't agree, nowhere did I mention a waste of time, the lady now has a working system for about 2.5 hours work (including removing and refitting), about £60 if I had charged for it, now even you cannot buy, and install a new system for £60.
"monitorman, I admire your persistance, but its not really practicable is it."
Once again, I don't agree, the Dictionary definition of practicable is "that can be done, feasible", it can be done, (I did it, the unit now works), it is feasible for someone else to do it.
So, to anyone reading this, if you have a racalite lighting system and it no longer works, tough sh*t, you will have to get a new system which is what i said 4 months ago (also years ago )
No, breezer, we are not going to agree on this, our philophy's are different, you are "Rip it out and replace with new" mine is "Fix it if I can".
Finally, the second unit is now fixed, I sourced a new RPY97 detecor IC from a company on the Web, £1.50 plus postage.
Regards,
Monitorman.
In answer to your points, here is my reply.
"So you are saying that in order, to attempt to get an, out of date, no longer made, external P.I.R. to possibly work, you have to buy an ultrasonic cleaner, and there is no g'tee it will work and this should take around 7 months to complete. (I am using yourself as the guide, since it was 7 months since your previous (first) post)"
1) No, I already had an Ultrasonic cleaner. (They are only about £30 from CPC anyway).
2) As I said in my first post the original unit only took 2 hours to repair, not 7 months!
3) The second unit was a SPARE so elapsed time was not an issue, (it is nice to have a spare on the shelf).
"Monitorman, its nothing personal you understand, (no really, its not) its just that what you are saying by your own admission is a complete waste of time."
I don't agree, nowhere did I mention a waste of time, the lady now has a working system for about 2.5 hours work (including removing and refitting), about £60 if I had charged for it, now even you cannot buy, and install a new system for £60.
"monitorman, I admire your persistance, but its not really practicable is it."
Once again, I don't agree, the Dictionary definition of practicable is "that can be done, feasible", it can be done, (I did it, the unit now works), it is feasible for someone else to do it.
So, to anyone reading this, if you have a racalite lighting system and it no longer works, tough sh*t, you will have to get a new system which is what i said 4 months ago (also years ago )
No, breezer, we are not going to agree on this, our philophy's are different, you are "Rip it out and replace with new" mine is "Fix it if I can".
Finally, the second unit is now fixed, I sourced a new RPY97 detecor IC from a company on the Web, £1.50 plus postage.
Regards,
Monitorman.
B
breezer
monitorman you are overlooking the obvious.
lets say a person wants to follow your info, lets call that person Q (I just happened to have chosen Q at random, no other reason)
Q will have to find and buy an ultrasonic cleaner
Q will then have to read the instructions of said ultrasonic cleaner
Q will then have to read up on how to test / change RPY97 detecor IC (assuming by IC you mean it is an Integrated Circuit) not to mention by a soldering iron etc to change said IC (i assume it is soldered in, all well and good if its in a socket)
Not looking good is it.
Q then has a problem and posts here for your guidance, Q will have to wait a minimum of 26 days for a reply from you. (its a shame, but you do post infrequently)
Monitorman, as before, i said
I admire you for what you have done, but its of no real use, since what if you are wrong and the unit fails again, or what if you are right and something else fails?
racalites were known for their high failure rate, quite often due to corrosion. The latter units had two tiny holes in the bottom front to let water out, but this didn't seem to work too well either.
Yes monitorman, that is true. Rip it out because:
new kit will have makers g'tee
i can sleep at night knowing kit is reliable
Customer is happy because they have new kit not a repair / bodge (I am not saying what you did is a bodge, just not a good repair since no where did you mention after removing the
its pointless flogging a dead horse, which is what you are doing. (trying to get a very old style of detector to work again)
If however, it was for your enjoyment / satisfaction to repair such a piece of junk then yes, i am happy you enjoyed it and got pleasure (No, really i am.)
But for the average joe bloggs, like Q, its a total waste of time, which is what i said in the first place.
Nail in the coffin time
don't need to, you can use existing cables, but you can buy the kit starting at just under £60 (and i do mean Just)
google for GJD
and not forgetting if you want to buy stand alone pir / flood lights (which could be put on the existing mains cable) they start at less then £10
lets say a person wants to follow your info, lets call that person Q (I just happened to have chosen Q at random, no other reason)
Q will have to find and buy an ultrasonic cleaner
Q will then have to read the instructions of said ultrasonic cleaner
Q will then have to read up on how to test / change RPY97 detecor IC (assuming by IC you mean it is an Integrated Circuit) not to mention by a soldering iron etc to change said IC (i assume it is soldered in, all well and good if its in a socket)
Not looking good is it.
Q then has a problem and posts here for your guidance, Q will have to wait a minimum of 26 days for a reply from you. (its a shame, but you do post infrequently)
Monitorman, as before, i said
i still standby that.breezer said:
I admire you for what you have done, but its of no real use, since what if you are wrong and the unit fails again, or what if you are right and something else fails?
racalites were known for their high failure rate, quite often due to corrosion. The latter units had two tiny holes in the bottom front to let water out, but this didn't seem to work too well either.
monitorman said:
Yes monitorman, that is true. Rip it out because:
new kit will have makers g'tee
i can sleep at night knowing kit is reliable
Customer is happy because they have new kit not a repair / bodge (I am not saying what you did is a bodge, just not a good repair since no where did you mention after removing the
which you also blamed for the fault in the 2nd place (rightly or wrongly) you failed to mention any replacement so the unit will corode even quicker than they normally did.monitorman said:
its pointless flogging a dead horse, which is what you are doing. (trying to get a very old style of detector to work again)
If however, it was for your enjoyment / satisfaction to repair such a piece of junk then yes, i am happy you enjoyed it and got pleasure (No, really i am.)
But for the average joe bloggs, like Q, its a total waste of time, which is what i said in the first place.
Nail in the coffin time
don't need to, you can use existing cables, but you can buy the kit starting at just under £60 (and i do mean Just)
google for GJD
and not forgetting if you want to buy stand alone pir / flood lights (which could be put on the existing mains cable) they start at less then £10
Breezer,
Tools:
An ultrasonic cleaner is currently available form CPC (www.cpc.co.uk) for £17.24 inc VAT, not a fortune is it.?
A soldering iron should be part of any serious DIYer's toolkit, anyway only £4.59 inc VAT from CPC, including solder sucker and cutters !
I only post when I have something to say, it was a long delay last time because I wanted to finish the repair of the 2nd detector. I have now set it up so that I get an email from DIYnot when someone posts to this thread.
I accept that you are not being personal, we are just having a jolly discussion, aren't we ?
Strangely enough, neither of these two detectors has shown any sign of corrosion, both have been used, but the installed one is fitted under a Garage Canopy, so does not normally see any rain, although it may suffer from condensation.
I accept that in exposed positions they could suffer from corrosion.
Yes, I missed out the fact that I had sealed up the silvered box which contains the PCB and the mirror with Silicone, not the acetic acid giving off stuff.
I think that you are overstating the value of a maker's guarantee, in practice the maker does NOT guaratee that his product will not go wrong, just that he will repair or replace it if it does. The 12 month guarantee does, however encourage him to produce a unit that will last 12 months!
If you install XXX's detector and 6 months down the line it fails, then M (the customer) will call you out to fix it under the guarantee part of the contract between M and yourself, ie he won't want to pay. You will presumably get a replacement unit from XXX's distributor but as far as I know you won't get paid for your time by anyone despite that the failure was not your fault.
Yes, I do know about the GJD OPAL, for example, but nobody has come up with a definitive statement about the value of the resistor and where you it. I have some thoughts on this if anyone is interested.
Regards,
Monitorman.
Tools:
An ultrasonic cleaner is currently available form CPC (www.cpc.co.uk) for £17.24 inc VAT, not a fortune is it.?
A soldering iron should be part of any serious DIYer's toolkit, anyway only £4.59 inc VAT from CPC, including solder sucker and cutters !
I only post when I have something to say, it was a long delay last time because I wanted to finish the repair of the 2nd detector. I have now set it up so that I get an email from DIYnot when someone posts to this thread.
I accept that you are not being personal, we are just having a jolly discussion, aren't we ?
Strangely enough, neither of these two detectors has shown any sign of corrosion, both have been used, but the installed one is fitted under a Garage Canopy, so does not normally see any rain, although it may suffer from condensation.
I accept that in exposed positions they could suffer from corrosion.
Yes, I missed out the fact that I had sealed up the silvered box which contains the PCB and the mirror with Silicone, not the acetic acid giving off stuff.
I think that you are overstating the value of a maker's guarantee, in practice the maker does NOT guaratee that his product will not go wrong, just that he will repair or replace it if it does. The 12 month guarantee does, however encourage him to produce a unit that will last 12 months!
If you install XXX's detector and 6 months down the line it fails, then M (the customer) will call you out to fix it under the guarantee part of the contract between M and yourself, ie he won't want to pay. You will presumably get a replacement unit from XXX's distributor but as far as I know you won't get paid for your time by anyone despite that the failure was not your fault.
Yes, I do know about the GJD OPAL, for example, but nobody has come up with a definitive statement about the value of the resistor and where you it. I have some thoughts on this if anyone is interested.
Regards,
Monitorman.
B
breezer
First things first.
jolly disscussion, absolutely!
no, indicated costs are not much, but Q or M would still have to learn to use them, thats another point.
i am sure anyone can follow some simple pictures / instructions and change a racalite pir and controller to a GJD pir and controller, soldering irons dont come with "how to solder instuctions"
You are right about g'tee and 6 months down the line, how ever, if a brand does that bad, logicaly you don't use that brand anymore, why do you suppose you cant buy the original racalite?
I doubt anyone will give you the definative answer about the resistor because its not worth worrying about, because as i said before, its a better job (and easier) to change the whole lot.
You never said if you got any satisfaction / job well done value from "fixing" the racalite pirs. I did ask.
jolly disscussion, absolutely!
no, indicated costs are not much, but Q or M would still have to learn to use them, thats another point.
i am sure anyone can follow some simple pictures / instructions and change a racalite pir and controller to a GJD pir and controller, soldering irons dont come with "how to solder instuctions"
You are right about g'tee and 6 months down the line, how ever, if a brand does that bad, logicaly you don't use that brand anymore, why do you suppose you cant buy the original racalite?
I doubt anyone will give you the definative answer about the resistor because its not worth worrying about, because as i said before, its a better job (and easier) to change the whole lot.
You never said if you got any satisfaction / job well done value from "fixing" the racalite pirs. I did ask.
Breezer,
Yes, I got a lot of any satisfaction / job well done value from fixing the Racalite pirs, that was what it is all about !
I have checked out the GJD 910 light controller as you suggested, and at about £56 is looks a nice bit of kit. One would have to use it with the GJD Opal (at about £37) to put together a complete system, not quite the £60 total that I mentioned earlier but near enough. Perhaps with a bit more research, these bits can be obtained cheaper ?
Its's been fun !
Bye,
Monitorman.
Yes, I got a lot of any satisfaction / job well done value from fixing the Racalite pirs, that was what it is all about !
I have checked out the GJD 910 light controller as you suggested, and at about £56 is looks a nice bit of kit. One would have to use it with the GJD Opal (at about £37) to put together a complete system, not quite the £60 total that I mentioned earlier but near enough. Perhaps with a bit more research, these bits can be obtained cheaper ?
Its's been fun !
Bye,
Monitorman.
B
breezer
sorry to pick fault, i never said that exact controller, because if you use another one you can get the controller and pir all made by GJD for 59.99
I figured you got enjoyment / satisfaction, but it would be easier for any one else to do as i suggested in the first place, and bin it.
But i am happy that you yourself enjoyed it, its just that its not for everyone.
I figured you got enjoyment / satisfaction, but it would be easier for any one else to do as i suggested in the first place, and bin it.
But i am happy that you yourself enjoyed it, its just that its not for everyone.
I have an RCL1 with two PIR's which has suddenly stopped working properly. I would be happy to go with the monitorman option except i am incapable! Monitorman! would you like to do it for me? I am open to a new controller/upgrade or to a repair. The system worked really well and the pir's seemed to have a really good range. Any new ones i have added in other places don't seem half as good.
I live in mid Beds so might not be too far for you to travel to me.
Do get in touch as these lights are driving me mad. They come on when they feel like it - whether there is something to trigger them or not - nad then don't come on when they should. I can overide and leave the on but that seems a bit wasteful.
Cheers,
I live in mid Beds so might not be too far for you to travel to me.
Do get in touch as these lights are driving me mad. They come on when they feel like it - whether there is something to trigger them or not - nad then don't come on when they should. I can overide and leave the on but that seems a bit wasteful.
Cheers,
in regard to you RLC1
does the system actually work?
or does it trigger during the day? night?
is there an obstruction within the detection area of the PIR sensors?
most of the time we get called to the older Racal stuff, it is usually failing/failed to send signals to the controller,
and yep, Racal don't make it any more,
i have not come across any equipment that would be compatible with the controller.
so i am afraid if it is not a basic fault with the installation you might probably have to have the lot replaced.
yep we use GJD and its very very good equipment.
Oasis
does the system actually work?
or does it trigger during the day? night?
is there an obstruction within the detection area of the PIR sensors?
most of the time we get called to the older Racal stuff, it is usually failing/failed to send signals to the controller,
and yep, Racal don't make it any more,
i have not come across any equipment that would be compatible with the controller.
so i am afraid if it is not a basic fault with the installation you might probably have to have the lot replaced.
yep we use GJD and its very very good equipment.
Oasis
A
Alarm
Too much flaffing about.
Fit new and its got a warranty, mess with old kit it could go pop in 5 days.
Fit new and its got a warranty, mess with old kit it could go pop in 5 days.
i agree with Alarm
we would normally just bin the old kit, check cabling to and from devices (if ok reuse) and fit new kit, as alarm says warrentee exists on new kit NOT on repairs to old kit.
we would normally just bin the old kit, check cabling to and from devices (if ok reuse) and fit new kit, as alarm says warrentee exists on new kit NOT on repairs to old kit.
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