RBCO or Auto resetting RCD for disabled home?

[ericmark]

Opinions please!
Old couple in house built 1954, which needs a rewire. Waiting for council to get their finger out and OK the grant. Been waiting already 3 years so in mean time there is a problem with nuisance tripping of RCD which is under the stairs and impossible for female to get to (only one leg) and hard for male to get to.
Cure 1 is to change RCD to auto resetting RCD about £300 for unit.
Cure 2 is to remove RCD and fit RBCO’s on those circuits.
The supply is TN-C-S (PME).
Using his stick the male can just about reset the RCD so he should be able to reset RCBO but unlikely female will be able to re-set them. Once rewired one would hope the RCBO’s or auto reset RCD could still be used but because once rewired one would expect duel RCD’s at least either one would be manual or need to spend another £300 for second auto RCD.
If male dies before female then auto RCD’s will be only option unless the whole consumer unit is re-sited.
I know auto RCD’s exist but never used one. Not sure how good or bad they are.
Ideal would be for council to get their finger out but considering how long it’s been already seems one of them will need to die first.
The house was converted 3 years ago to allow the lady of the house to live there with one leg and a wet room was built under 16th Edition regulations which resulted in single RCD protecting some circuits (Not sockets except for those in garage which would be used for lawn mower). So showers, under floor electric heating, loft conversion, central heating and garage are about only items protected. Down-stairs shower is not electric but boiler is still on protected side.
So which option or third and why? Couldn’t give a dam about Part P if council got their finger out there would be no problem. And last time charges were waved anyway because both are disabled. Two people could do the work. Me or my son. Both qualified so please don’t bother about testing etc. It is in some ways just temporary until council moves but one would hope parts can be reused.

 

[ColJack]

option 3..
sell the house and buy a bungalow in a sheltered accomodation site..
then a simple pull of a string would have a warden comming round to re-set it for them..

why people insist on staying in a house that no longer serves their requirements just because they've lived there half of their lives is beyond me..

 

[martinxxxxxx]

option 3..
sell the house and buy a bungalow in a sheltered accomodation site..
then a simple pull of a string would have a warden comming round to re-set it for them..

why people insist on staying in a house that no longer serves their requirements just because they've lived there half of their lives is beyond me..

Maybe it won't be beyond you if you reach their age

 

[martinxxxxxx]

You could investigate what is causing the RCD to trip.

I am not having a pop but if you could resolve the problem then it would save a lot of work. These things should really be investigated if they constantly trip as they are there to protect people.
Martin

 

[ericmark]

option 3..
sell the house and buy a bungalow in a sheltered accomodation site..
then a simple pull of a string would have a warden comming round to re-set it for them..

why people insist on staying in a house that no longer serves their requirements just because they've lived there half of their lives is beyond me..

They were required to sign that they would not move for 5 years in order to have stair lift fitted so this is not an option.

You could investigate what is causing the RCD to trip.

I am not having a pop but if you could resolve the problem then it would save a lot of work. These things should really be investigated if they constantly trip as they are there to protect people.
Martin

Agreed but although there are a number of suspect circuits nothing shows up with insulation tests. Enquiry as to what they did just before it tripped has also failed to work out why.

My house also trips from time to time and I know my wiring is A1. Last time I isolated fault to shopping being placed on the counter top which was pushing up against the start switch of coffee grinder causing it to arc tripping the RCD. So how would you cure a fault like that? Shoot the wife? The problem is too much on one RCD to isolate faults. For an able bodied person the RCD tripping is not a problem but fitting the consumer unit under the stairs is the real problem.

If a rewire was not already planned I would consider fitting a junction box and moving consumer unit. However close to where it is there are no walls just banisters, doors, stair lift ect. So it would need to move other side of wet room to kitchen where part of the wall is a partition wall where an old door was. But this is 7 meters from original position and only real way would be a re-wire to move the consumer unit that distance.

It is easy to plan and say this is best option but stumbling block is county council who have already spent money converting house and it was these conversions which highlighted the problem in first place.

Simple cure would be remove RCD but I have no intention of doing that. This

Untitled

• ericmark
• 6 Dec 2008
• 34

seems best option at moment but although I can read all about them I have not found anyone who has used one. It would be nice to hear from some one who has fitted or used one before spending out.

 

[NotHimAgain]

These devices have been around for some time now but I have never seen one installed in the UK. There used to be a sales video on a GEWISS web site but I can't find it now.

IMO they should be banned from domestic installations as I believe the philosophy behind them is fundamentally flawed. As I understand it these devices are generally used at the front end, but it is its use in any domestic circumstances that I don't agree with.

The sales video I saw presents a scenario of a property left unattended whilst the occupants are on holiday. The RCD trips due to a storm and the contents of the freezer are at risk. The RCD 'checks' the installation and then resets . These checks don't involve the RCD sending someone to look and see if the fault is actually due to the consumer being in contact with the supply .

It appears that these products where originally developed for the southern European market. The supplies in this area are usually TT and very often have a front end 30 mA RCD.

The principle is not unlike the Auto Reclosers used on many HV overhead lines. The idea is that the fault that tripped the supply may have cleared, so attempt an automatic reinstatement. If the fault is due to a bird strike the recloser is quite capable of causing its remains to be blow to bits in order to clear the problem .

The last time I saw a price for one of these it was in excess of £250 - surely you could clear the faults, or even install a temporary front end RCD outside the cupboard (and remove the other RCD(s)) for that sort of money.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Yes occasionally the RCD in my house trips too. With testing I found it trips at 15mA and so I have never got round to replacing it. I also discovered that the iron was causing it. So I brought a new one.

If you traced it to a particular appliance, surly it would be better to just replace that?

Anyway I'm sure you have thought of that. I am interested to learn more about the auto resetting RCDs, It bring to mind an image of Homer Simpson being repeatedly electrocuted as power is cycled in one episode , very funny (I have kids)
Martin

 

[bernardgreen]

I would avoid auto re-setting RCDs in a domestic situation as the only way the device can test is to re-close and then if the fault is still present re-open. If the fault involves a Live to Earth path through a human being unable to move that person is going to receive repeated short duration shocks for as long as they are in contact with the Live and Earth.

I do not know if this would be acceptable under domestic regulations. It works on industrial and difficult to access sites.

Instead of an RCD use a self latching contactor to provide control. The coil is operated via a closed contact on an un-balance detector and one of its normally open contacts. A remote button is used to latch the contactor to switch power on.

Depending on how independent the couple are it might be worth suggesting a way to alert a trusted neighbour that they have lost power. Fitting a non maintained emergency lamp will give them light if the RCD takes out the lighting circuit. Position the light where it can be seen through a window from outside and the trusted neighbour might then be alerted. Or fit it outside as a porch light. If they want to use it as a porch lamp then turning the mains OFF will bring the lamp on (for the duration of battery life)

 

[ColJack]

could you not install a small enclosure close to the door under the stairs so that it can be reached ( or in another suitable position ) and then run the tails to 1 or 2 rcd's in there then back to the CU and replace the rcd's there with switches?

 

[ericmark]

I am far from happy with the installation and if I could I would completely re-wire and move the consumer unit to kitchen where it can be easy accessed.

However I don't have that option. I have considered wiring in Ali-tube and having RCD sockets this would be far better and at £300 for Auto-reset RCD and £25 for double RCD socket 12 sockets would come to same price.

But since I can't do rewire this is not an option and one has to do risk assessment. Risk due to no heating v risk due to electric shock from shower etc. Main risk one may say is under floor heating but not sure how one would get a shock through a carbon fibre false leg? The meter of plastic should be good insulator.

One option would be change RCD to 100ma but that goes against the grain. However must be better than removing it altogether. It has never tripped while I have been there.

So as said before no heating is a real problem and does need re-dressing so still down to same questions.
RBCO
Auto-reseting
100ma
I am leaning towards RBCO route but details on auto-reset RCD does say it checks fault is clear before reconnecting supply and it has a limit of three tries so it is still an option.
I have used RCD's with remote sensing coils but not seen one with remote reset. Also they do not fail safe energising a coil in moulded breaker trips breaker and of course moulded breakers are a bit of over kill anyway. DIY latched relays does not seem fail safe either and although it may work I think I would go for a proprietary product not into DIY safety. I would prefer to fit a auto resetting RCD than any DIY method.

However it has been good to hear what others think. Maybe letter to MP listing all the delays would should also be on options list. 2005 she lost her leg and still waiting for work to start on re-wire and new kitchen.

Happy new year to all. Sleep tight and mind the decade bugs don't bite.

 

[bernardgreen]

I think I would go for a proprietary product not into DIY safety. I would prefer to fit a auto resetting RCD than any DIY method.

replace "DIY method" with "bespoke method" and you have the description of the best type of solutions to problems.

Maybe letter to MP listing all the delays would should also be on options list.

Definately. And speak to the Citizens Advice Bureau for other ways to "encourage" the council to act. Of course it would only embarrass the council if the local newspapers / radio got to hear about it and embarrassed councils can do strange things. Like acting responsibly