Reasons to Remain.

[Himaginn]

Remaining in EU

As I see it there are several issues regarding the arguments for leaving or remaining. I don’t see these as separate issues but dependent inter-connected issues.

I’ll deal with the easiest but most vague one first: Sovereignty.

I’ll deal with the other issues in separate posts, to make it easier for further discussion.

Sovereignty is a vague concept invoked by the Brexit campaigners when they want to avoid specific issues.

What is sovereignty? If I asked people what does sovereignty mean, the answers would be: Control, Independence, Freedom, Democracy, Autonomy.

But control of what? Independence from what? Freedom from what?

Control over what, migration, trade, regulation, justice, tax, etc?

Independence from what? Independence to exercise control, so we’re back to ‘Control’.

Freedom from what? Freedom from EU regulation in terms of trade, tax, migration, justice. So we’re really back to control again.

Democracy in what terms? We have democracy in UK and in EU. As Peter Chichester explained, we don’t have democracy when the Chancellor of the Exchequer sets the taxes, but very few of us voted for him, or indeed for the party to which he belongs. So this is a delusionary argument. Democracy is a system of representation not an end product allowing each of us to have a voice.

Autonomy to do what? We don’t have autonomy now nor would we in case of a Brexit. We’d still be bound by regulations, restriction, treaties, agreements, etc That is society. Without those restrictions anarchy would be rife.

So Sovereignty is a vague concept that encompasses all the issues without dealing with any of them in detail.

I’ll address the real specific issues in separate posts, as I said, to facilitate the discussion.

I’ve more or less finished the trade issue and I’ll post it tonight. The rest will have to wait.

As I see it those issues are: Trade, Migration, Justice, Regulation, Tax, Influence. They are not separate issues but inherently inter-connected and complex.

 

[Doug99]

Why over complicate the issue? Sovereignty is the ability to say 'NO' and to succeed/fail by our own decisions, not by that of others.

 

[tony1851]

Reasons to Remain? Hmmm........... errr............dunno?

 

[Fire and Ice]

Why are you opening up yet another thread about the EU. One is enough. Open any more and I shall report you to the moderators.

 

[Himaginn]

Why are you opening up yet another thread about the EU. One is enough. Open any more and I shall report you to the moderators.

I did so immediately following this thread. I called it "Trade with EU" or words to that effect.
When I have time I'll post another called "Migration within EU", then another about "Regulation within EU", then another about "Justice within EU", then another, etc.

Aaah, you're just trying to wind me up, ain't you. You forget, I can see through you.

 

[Fire and Ice]

Why are you opening up yet another thread about the EU. One is enough. Open any more and I shall report you to the moderators.

I did so immediately following this thread. I called it "Trade with EU" or words to that effect.
When I have time I'll post another called "Migration within EU", then another about "Regulation within EU", then another about "Justice within EU", then another, etc.

Aaah, you're just trying to wind me up, ain't you. You forget, I can see through you.

No you can't all you can see it a screen in front of you with some words on it..

 

[PBC_1966]

Sovereignty is a vague concept invoked by the Brexit campaigners when they want to avoid specific issues.

It really isn't that vague at all. It's about the ability of a nation to have control over its own policies, taxation, laws, dealings with the rest of the world, who and what it allows inside its borders, etc.

 

[Himaginn]

Sovereignty is a vague concept invoked by the Brexit campaigners when they want to avoid specific issues.

It really isn't that vague at all. It's about the ability of a nation to have control over its own policies, taxation, laws, dealings with the rest of the world, who and what it allows inside its borders, etc.

That is precisely why I intend to separate the issues, rather than just lump them under the vague concept of "sovereignty".
I've only separated Trade so far, and it may be a few days before I get round to doing any of the rest.

Feel free to start off a thread about "Migration within EU" or "Taxation within EU" or "Regulation within EU" etc, if you want, I'll add to it when I can.

In other words separate the issues so we can analyse the specific issues rather than everyone talking about any and all issues on different threads.
And avoid the all encompassing title of "Sovereignty."
I fully accept that the issues are inter-dependent and inter-connected but I think it does help to differentiate as far as possible, and when/where necessary identify and accept the inter-dependability.

The reason why I started with Trade is because it is highly dependent on the Trade Agreement, or lack of it, on whether we have control over our borders or not. Any Free Trade Agreement will involve accepting the Schengen Agreement. Similarly, any refusal to accept that Schengen Agreement will negate the possibility of a Free Trade Agreement. There are many other such inter-connectedness such as the participating in the scientific research field as per the post I added recently. And in that link, it shows how the Swiss referendum about the Schengen Agreement has lead to Switzerland being excluded from such cooperative organisations and nearly led to the complete breakdown of the whole bilateral agreements and the refusal of EU to renegotiate anything with Switzerland.

 

[Fire and Ice]

 

[JohnD]

On the subject of Trade Sovereignty, Switzerland has total sovereignty over, for example, its banking laws.

When it agreed to obey EU regulations recently, it did so entirely freely and of its own volition. It was entirely free to refuse, and to see its banking system collapse.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/05/27-eu-switzerland-taxation-agreement/

Equally, it freely signed a Free Trade agreement with China recently, that gives Chine the right to export to Switzerland, but agrees that Swiss watches will forever be charged duty in China.

Just the sort of sovereignty any nation would want. If the UK leaves the EU it will be equally free to trade with the EU.

 

[Fire and Ice]

The Swiss are in exactly the direct opposite position to the UK position... The Swiss export more in goods and services to the EU than the EU exports to Switzerland... The Swiss have something to lose by not agreeing..

The Swiss banking system will never collapse, the people with Swiss bank accounts will see to that.

 

[jockscott]

Any Free Trade Agreement will involve accepting the Schengen Agreement.

Hmmm as present members of the EU, we enjoy "free trade" with other EU countries.. Did the UK agree to be part of the Schengen Agreement? I think not. Anyway, some EU countries are already ripping up the Schengen Agreement.. Merkel is apoplectic, yet her own country re-established border controls with Austria recently... Surely a case of double standards.

 

[ladylola]

Equally, it freely signed a Free Trade agreement with China recently, that gives Chine the right to export to Switzerland, but agrees that Swiss watches will forever be charged duty in China.

Hardly a free trade arrangement then , more an example of how free trade is at best an illusion and at worst total *******s . Free trade should essentially be country A gives unhindered access to it's markets to country B and vice versa. Thus we should have no cause to complain China is dumping cheap steel on us that would just be free trade.

 

[Himaginn]

The Swiss banking system will never collapse, the people with Swiss bank accounts will see to that.

The Swiss banks have already moved closer to EU and adopted many of the regulations concerning their financial sector.

A means of moving closer to the EU Switzerland’s bilateral approach has been a means of moving closer to the EU rather than maintaining distance – and around 40% of Swiss legislation derives from EU rules. Access to EU markets Maintaining Switzerland’s level of access to the Single Market requires continual closeness to the EU. A Free Trade agreement is not sufficient, especially for the financial sector. Maintaining access to European capital markets necessitates formal agreements and parallel legislation to that of the EU. Overall The Swiss approach is an exception, developed over time, rather than a formal model, and is a means of closer engagement with the EU. Forgoing complete access to the Single Market has had implications for the Swiss financial services sector, namely through the associated necessity of establishing operations in London, and has reduced Switzerland’s ability to engage in EU policy making.

And they are moving closer to EU

As an approach, Swiss relationships with the EU are not a formal ‘model’, and the Swiss approach does not lend itself to being readily replicated. Moreover, Switzerland has embarked on a continuing process of informal Europeanisation to keep the country close to the EU where necessary – the approach therefore involves remaining closely connected to the EU rather than keeping a distance.

https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/bus...13/Switzerlands-approach-to-EU-engagement.pdf

 

[Himaginn]

Equally, it freely signed a Free Trade agreement with China recently, that gives Chine the right to export to Switzerland, but agrees that Swiss watches will forever be charged duty in China.

Hardly a free trade arrangement then , more an example of how free trade is at best an illusion and at worst total *******s . Free trade should essentially be country A gives unhindered access to it's markets to country B and vice versa. Thus we should have no cause to complain China is dumping cheap steel on us that would just be free trade.

I'm not sure you got the gist of John's example, unless you were further elucidating his point.
He was showing the kind of "Trade Agreement" that Switzerland and China have, which you pointed out was not an equitable agreement. It was very much in China's favour.
As a much smaller country than EU, we would be in a similar, (but not exactly equal) position to Switzerland. We would not have the political or commercial clout that the EU has, nor possibly the support/fallback position of an EU Trade Agreement that Switzerland enjoys.
China might perceive that we were in a weaker position than Switzerland because without a Trade Agreement with EU, we would be heavily dependent on Trade Agreements with other countries, such as China.
We could easily be forced into an even more inequitable agreement than Switzerland were.