Sorry to add to the list but I can't help but notice the cut outs for the sink and hob are truly awful.
Removal of disused gas pipe from kitchen + gap in floorboard
- Thread starter Fishwalker
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RF is far more qualified to replay than I am. In fact I'm not qualified at all.
However it does look like the cable to the hob is well outside of the safe zones required and is thus non compliant and dangerous. Thats aside from the fact that it looks terribly untidy running at that angle from the switch to the hob.
Then everything is fine, it's all perfect.
All cables must run either vertically or horizontally from an electrical accessory (switch / socket etc). These are known as safe zones.
The wire at the back of the hob visible in the second to last photo you posted meanders along the wall outside of these safe zones and is not permitted. I suspect the kitchen fitter gas moved this cable rather than the electrician installing it incorrectly to start with.
A poor girl was killed by a cable installed outside a safe zone in a kitchen.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...r-electrocuted-in-botched-fitted-kitchen.html
More about safe zones here:
//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:walls
Sorry to bear more bad news for you. It must be horrendous having all this incompetent work carried out in your house.
The wire at the back of the hob visible in the second to last photo you posted meanders along the wall outside of these safe zones and is not permitted. I suspect the kitchen fitter gas moved this cable rather than the electrician installing it incorrectly to start with.
A poor girl was killed by a cable installed outside a safe zone in a kitchen.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...r-electrocuted-in-botched-fitted-kitchen.html
More about safe zones here:
//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:walls
Sorry to bear more bad news for you. It must be horrendous having all this incompetent work carried out in your house.
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Ok so after a very sleepless night after reading that horrific story about that poor mum and her kid's in the middle of the night, bursting into tears and stressing over the leaking stop cock and electrics, the fitter came early and we had a bit of a tussle about how to proceed with the plumbing, as he didn't want to get a plumber out.
He said all old houses have pipes that leak and he could just add another valve above the stop cock, even though it's the olive directly above the stop cock that is leaking. I was not having that after replacing floorboards and a joist. He therefore went and bought a new stop cock and valve/olive and we turned off the street water supply after alerting neighbours and he fixed the leak. When he'd done that we had a re-group and I explained about the electrics and that I had been advised they weren't up to spec, which the fitter said he also thought they ran too close to the water pipes.
The fitter has now said he can't finish that side of the kitchen as has other jobs starting tomorrow and so will finish the side not affected by electrics and plumbing today and come back when he can and I've sorted the electrics and plumbing. He also said to resolve things, he will take the cost of the plumber out of his fee, if I get them to fit the: sink, check the pipes, maybe move the stop cock under the sink and install the dishwasher.
I'm a lot happier with that and am now waiting for my electrician to come when he finishes his current job and will ask him to safely chase the wall to bury the oven/hob cables and install them at the correct angles. I'll also see if there is anywhere else one of the isolator switches can go.
Just to double check, am I right in thinking that if the metal back box of the isolator switch is touching the copper pipe, which runs vertically up to the bathroom above, could I get an electric shock anywhere along that pipe?
He said all old houses have pipes that leak and he could just add another valve above the stop cock, even though it's the olive directly above the stop cock that is leaking. I was not having that after replacing floorboards and a joist. He therefore went and bought a new stop cock and valve/olive and we turned off the street water supply after alerting neighbours and he fixed the leak. When he'd done that we had a re-group and I explained about the electrics and that I had been advised they weren't up to spec, which the fitter said he also thought they ran too close to the water pipes.
The fitter has now said he can't finish that side of the kitchen as has other jobs starting tomorrow and so will finish the side not affected by electrics and plumbing today and come back when he can and I've sorted the electrics and plumbing. He also said to resolve things, he will take the cost of the plumber out of his fee, if I get them to fit the: sink, check the pipes, maybe move the stop cock under the sink and install the dishwasher.
I'm a lot happier with that and am now waiting for my electrician to come when he finishes his current job and will ask him to safely chase the wall to bury the oven/hob cables and install them at the correct angles. I'll also see if there is anywhere else one of the isolator switches can go.
Just to double check, am I right in thinking that if the metal back box of the isolator switch is touching the copper pipe, which runs vertically up to the bathroom above, could I get an electric shock anywhere along that pipe?
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Regarding cuts outs, My fitter is supposed to be a joiner too and while I'm not happy with the rough cuts and could do far better myself, it's the least of my worries, as at least when the hob and sink go in, you can't see those cuts. Maybe with us postponing that side, I'll be able to check templates and smooth them a bit.
Today he has the other side of the room with a breakfast bar that curves into the main worktop to do and I'll be watching very carefully regarding that and advising how I want it. I'll make sure he draws a template out and uses a finer cutting device, as that will be fully on show.
I also need the profiles edging and am slightly nervous about that!
I think you need to stop and think about how you want things proceed from here and get it all down in writing and then agreed with all parties. Get a contract of work in place from here on, any decent tradesperson would be fine with that, there may be a semblance of re-negotiation if original agreements change significantly but compromise should be achievable. As you say you need to minimise your stress levels.
As RF has said, electrics, as they sit just now need corrected. Agree that in writing and any other electrical work needed with the spark. I'd check in that forum about the copper pipe on the back box but it certainly isn't right from a piping point of view and one of them needs moved.
The kitten fitter? Hmmm, well the less said about that the better. He obviously doesn't make a very good plumber, in fact, i'd say as good a plumber as he is a kitchen fitter, going by those pics, in all honesty. Iif you're not happy, and I wouldn't be either, insist (or have your OH do it!) that it's finished properly and have an agreed work schedule.
I do have to agree with the others tho I'm afraid, he's made a fair mess of those cutouts, couldn't even drill the corners!!
As RF has said, electrics, as they sit just now need corrected. Agree that in writing and any other electrical work needed with the spark. I'd check in that forum about the copper pipe on the back box but it certainly isn't right from a piping point of view and one of them needs moved.
The kitten fitter? Hmmm, well the less said about that the better. He obviously doesn't make a very good plumber, in fact, i'd say as good a plumber as he is a kitchen fitter, going by those pics, in all honesty. Iif you're not happy, and I wouldn't be either, insist (or have your OH do it!) that it's finished properly and have an agreed work schedule.
I do have to agree with the others tho I'm afraid, he's made a fair mess of those cutouts, couldn't even drill the corners!!
As above on quite a few points.
Perhaps you should pay off the kit fitter and electrician - neither are competent. What you have installed must come out & be correctly re-done. Anything less than a properly fitted kitchen will come back to haunt you .
I responded to your original kitchen post, and to this latest thread, gently trying to steer you in the right direction - the key to using a forum such as this is to forget about prescribing for yourself or second guessing the advice.
Here's where i see your kitchen at the above last post:
1. What is the cause of the damp problem? It must be established.
2. what is the relationship between the outside ground level & the interior floor level? External pics showing ground level DPC & air bricks will help.
3. Did you replace the rotten joists? How?
Note: all the joist tails are seated in the external wall.
Is it a cavity wall? Is it rendered?
4. There is low level damp and condensation across the wall plaster. It needs hacking off and rendering. Left on the wall it will smell of damp.
5. Why a street shut-off? Where is your external stop-cock? It must be located and tested.
6. The electrics should be part of a kitchen ring with home runs for any app that needs one. Recessed cable should be capped with metal channel.
7. The plumbing: pipes disappearing into plaster on an external wall are trouble waiting to happen. The rest of the unclipped pipework should be pulled, and redone in one material ( best is copper). Insulated pipes could have been run below the floor. Apparently, the kit fitter cannot solder, hence the plastic fittings.
8. Have finished floor levels been taken into account with the w/t height?
9. The ceiling & the walls need painting (or re-painting) they should have been done before cabinet work. (FWIW: what is the app on the wall above the hob?)
As above, you need to sit down and re-think, & do a properly measured and annotated design plan - dont muddle along or you will only end up with a muddle.
Perhaps you should pay off the kit fitter and electrician - neither are competent. What you have installed must come out & be correctly re-done. Anything less than a properly fitted kitchen will come back to haunt you .
I responded to your original kitchen post, and to this latest thread, gently trying to steer you in the right direction - the key to using a forum such as this is to forget about prescribing for yourself or second guessing the advice.
Here's where i see your kitchen at the above last post:
1. What is the cause of the damp problem? It must be established.
2. what is the relationship between the outside ground level & the interior floor level? External pics showing ground level DPC & air bricks will help.
3. Did you replace the rotten joists? How?
Note: all the joist tails are seated in the external wall.
Is it a cavity wall? Is it rendered?
4. There is low level damp and condensation across the wall plaster. It needs hacking off and rendering. Left on the wall it will smell of damp.
5. Why a street shut-off? Where is your external stop-cock? It must be located and tested.
6. The electrics should be part of a kitchen ring with home runs for any app that needs one. Recessed cable should be capped with metal channel.
7. The plumbing: pipes disappearing into plaster on an external wall are trouble waiting to happen. The rest of the unclipped pipework should be pulled, and redone in one material ( best is copper). Insulated pipes could have been run below the floor. Apparently, the kit fitter cannot solder, hence the plastic fittings.
8. Have finished floor levels been taken into account with the w/t height?
9. The ceiling & the walls need painting (or re-painting) they should have been done before cabinet work. (FWIW: what is the app on the wall above the hob?)
As above, you need to sit down and re-think, & do a properly measured and annotated design plan - dont muddle along or you will only end up with a muddle.
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Damp issue resolved. Was 3" of floorboard left out againist exterior wall letting moisture amd cold air blow up into room me with it being hard to consistently heat due to single brick wall in alcove and an old underpowered radiator, the combo caused condensation, which settled on anything in the units on the exterior wall.
A previous water leak left unaddressed (historical) + olive gone on stop cock for some time while we were on holiday caused rot to part of a joist and 4 floorboards. We've replaced that and it is supported in brick with damp proofed brick.
We've insulated the single brick wall and upgraded the radiator. We've also added the device on the wall (single room heat exchanger fan) that removes moisture from the room whilst retaining 70% of heat.
The plaster may look damp but it's shadows if so. It's stable.
Yes I should have painted the wall behind units but we only ripped out unit's last weekend as couldn't do without kitchen + wanted to make sure mew kitchen arrived and OH works full time and I'm pregnant not I'm DIY mode. .cont
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While i'm on this thread, has anyone any advice on what to offer, to pay off our kitchen fitter when he comes in the morning?
He has worked 2 full days 8am til 5pm and tried his best but he has not been able to supply what he said he could and we are left with a half finished kitchen and a new fitter to find + plumber we've had to hire and delays on our sparky finishing.
I've detailed the job as follows but the quote was for £590 for kitchen and plumbing in 2 days and I'm thinking £300, though fitter gave impression he would ask £200 a day.
- Things Done -
Half the kitchen inc. interior wall, cornicing and pelmets + handles and base units with interiors
Appliances where removed from packaging without running by me and risked damage, as were not really needed for cuts and unit assembly done. Fridge moved about a lot and.
Good rapport maintained
- Things Not Done -
One worktop not shaped, only cut
Profiled edges not done
Units not sealed in
worktops not bracketed down
Dishwasher not installed with int door
Units window side no doors + no handles + no interiors
Plinths not in
End Cover panels not installed on exterior wall side
Mastic not done
Waterproofing of chipboard edges in carcasses requested not done
- Things done but not to the professional standard expected during quoting -
Didn't follow my carcass design (20cm unit, 40cm unit, 80cm unit) as admitted didn't check design, rather went with what he thought was usual (20cm, 80cm, 40cm). It was all in wall and base units by time I went to see how he was doing and when I mentioned it, the pain and frustration in ***'s face and the fact that it seemed acceptable still, meant I let him continue but in retrospect my design did make better sense, e.g. 20,40 80 meaning handles would have worked better too, e.g. 1, 2, 3 handles. Handles are now in place on end pull outs as if they were doors and are not as sturdy.
Cut outs for hob and sink very rough and poor and not as was expected at all for a £165 oak worktop that did deserve care.
Sealing of exterior floor to wall edge done after units put in through legs, when should/could have been done much more neatly before hand.
Plumbing done by *** caused olive nut to leak and had to have new stop cock fitted, meaning wet floor, which *** rectified but it had to be ripped out again on the 2nd evening as water valves had leaked (possible when cold tap was knocked at end of day when dishwasher was pushed back in place, causing more leaking water on floor.
A plumber was hired after arranging a quote earlier at short notice to resolve this and has ripped all plastic push fit plumbing done out and started again with sweated copper fittings and been able to go under the units and up through correct cut out in ikea unit (which I was led to believe *** was doing in prior discussion) meaning notches cut where not all needed and carcass warranty void now.
- Conclusion -
While we appreciate how hard *** tried to complete the kitchen in the 2 days he allotted, and quoted £570 - £590 for, we are now left with with a plumber to pay, another fitter/joiner to find asap, and have to have takeaways for more days, which is expensive for us and not good for me (pregnant). It has been pretty stressful and therefore we think it is fair to offer £300 for work done = roughly half for really what is half a job done.
I also offer this sincerely hoping I find no scratches on the hob or oven glass door fascia, as I wasn't asked if these could be unwrapped and I am very careful about things like that and they didn't really need taking out their wrapping until units why neigh on finished.
View media item 89856 View media item 89857 View media item 89858Above old fitting done my fitter with push fit
View media item 89859Above new fitting sweated on copper by plumber
View media item 89860
He has worked 2 full days 8am til 5pm and tried his best but he has not been able to supply what he said he could and we are left with a half finished kitchen and a new fitter to find + plumber we've had to hire and delays on our sparky finishing.
I've detailed the job as follows but the quote was for £590 for kitchen and plumbing in 2 days and I'm thinking £300, though fitter gave impression he would ask £200 a day.
- Things Done -
Half the kitchen inc. interior wall, cornicing and pelmets + handles and base units with interiors
Appliances where removed from packaging without running by me and risked damage, as were not really needed for cuts and unit assembly done. Fridge moved about a lot and.
Good rapport maintained
- Things Not Done -
One worktop not shaped, only cut
Profiled edges not done
Units not sealed in
worktops not bracketed down
Dishwasher not installed with int door
Units window side no doors + no handles + no interiors
Plinths not in
End Cover panels not installed on exterior wall side
Mastic not done
Waterproofing of chipboard edges in carcasses requested not done
- Things done but not to the professional standard expected during quoting -
Didn't follow my carcass design (20cm unit, 40cm unit, 80cm unit) as admitted didn't check design, rather went with what he thought was usual (20cm, 80cm, 40cm). It was all in wall and base units by time I went to see how he was doing and when I mentioned it, the pain and frustration in ***'s face and the fact that it seemed acceptable still, meant I let him continue but in retrospect my design did make better sense, e.g. 20,40 80 meaning handles would have worked better too, e.g. 1, 2, 3 handles. Handles are now in place on end pull outs as if they were doors and are not as sturdy.
Cut outs for hob and sink very rough and poor and not as was expected at all for a £165 oak worktop that did deserve care.
Sealing of exterior floor to wall edge done after units put in through legs, when should/could have been done much more neatly before hand.
Plumbing done by *** caused olive nut to leak and had to have new stop cock fitted, meaning wet floor, which *** rectified but it had to be ripped out again on the 2nd evening as water valves had leaked (possible when cold tap was knocked at end of day when dishwasher was pushed back in place, causing more leaking water on floor.
A plumber was hired after arranging a quote earlier at short notice to resolve this and has ripped all plastic push fit plumbing done out and started again with sweated copper fittings and been able to go under the units and up through correct cut out in ikea unit (which I was led to believe *** was doing in prior discussion) meaning notches cut where not all needed and carcass warranty void now.
- Conclusion -
While we appreciate how hard *** tried to complete the kitchen in the 2 days he allotted, and quoted £570 - £590 for, we are now left with with a plumber to pay, another fitter/joiner to find asap, and have to have takeaways for more days, which is expensive for us and not good for me (pregnant). It has been pretty stressful and therefore we think it is fair to offer £300 for work done = roughly half for really what is half a job done.
I also offer this sincerely hoping I find no scratches on the hob or oven glass door fascia, as I wasn't asked if these could be unwrapped and I am very careful about things like that and they didn't really need taking out their wrapping until units why neigh on finished.
View media item 89856 View media item 89857 View media item 89858Above old fitting done my fitter with push fit
View media item 89859Above new fitting sweated on copper by plumber
View media item 89860
It's a difficult one, but again, the no contract works both ways.
He hasn't come up anywhere near to scratch, I think everyone is agreed with that... Kitchen fitter...hmmm...slept with one more like. Therefore what you are offering could maybe be seen as being generous. If you are happy with that then I would say that's pretty fair.
Not everyone's as reasonable as me tho
He hasn't come up anywhere near to scratch, I think everyone is agreed with that... Kitchen fitter...hmmm...slept with one more like.
Therefore what you are offering could maybe be seen as being generous. If you are happy with that then I would say that's pretty fair. Not everyone's as reasonable as me tho
Vast improvement on the plumbing! Those loose cables do look untidy though.
With regards to your kitchen fitter, has he supplied any materials?
For a start he was far too ambitious to even think he could do all that in two days.
From the photos the work he has done appears to be very poor. Not only that but you say he has unnecessarily butchered your cabinets having installed them in the wrong place (never assume, always check with the customer).
The cutouts - You can tell a lot about someone by how they approach the work that no one will ever see.
Offer him what you think is fair and what you are happy to pay. To be honest he is lucky to get anything. Cut your losses whilst you still can. Some more short term pain will be worth it if you can find someone good to finish the job for you.
With regards to your kitchen fitter, has he supplied any materials?
For a start he was far too ambitious to even think he could do all that in two days.
From the photos the work he has done appears to be very poor. Not only that but you say he has unnecessarily butchered your cabinets having installed them in the wrong place (never assume, always check with the customer).
The cutouts - You can tell a lot about someone by how they approach the work that no one will ever see.
Offer him what you think is fair and what you are happy to pay. To be honest he is lucky to get anything. Cut your losses whilst you still can. Some more short term pain will be worth it if you can find someone good to finish the job for you.
Not sure where in the uk you are but £300 for two 8 hour days labour oop north would be more than fair.
The plumbing now looks good. This is the advantage of employing a proper tradesman. Unfortunately the electrics still look a mess.
If I had the time I'd come and sort this out for you at cost I feel so sorry for you being left with this mess after employing someone in good faith who claimed he could do the job
The plumbing now looks good. This is the advantage of employing a proper tradesman. Unfortunately the electrics still look a mess.
If I had the time I'd come and sort this out for you at cost I feel so sorry for you being left with this mess after employing someone in good faith who claimed he could do the job
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Not sure where in the uk you are but £300 for two 8 hour days labour oop north would be more than fair.
The plumbing now looks good. This is the advantage of employing a proper tradesman. Unfortunately the electrics still look a mess.
If I had the time I'd come and sort this out for you at cost I feel so sorry for you being left with this mess after employing someone in good faith who claimed he could do the job
RF my other half and I would love it if you could help us as we are in Hull, so not far from Leeds, however all the best tradesmen are always busy it seems! It's because of how hard it was to get a fitter quickly (considering I have 9wks max till baby's due and no nursery or bag packed), having gone from just doing a minimal makeover of kitchen to realising we may not move for a while or have chance to replace for a long time.
Anyway, the good news is I've released the fitter this morning, amicably for £275 for the 2 days, which he accepted apologetically. He didn't use any additional materials other than plumbing bits. We had a good tidy last night and oiled the remaining worktop and have our fab plumber who is only about 20yrs old I think, and is coming back to fit out sink waste and tap + add a switch to turn off water under the sink, so we don't have to use the stop cock and for £90ish and he'd already done a day's work and only came to quote!
I've also got a plasterer I've used before coming on Saturday to sort out the wall near the fridge and splashback area ready for tiling. I might mist coat and paint as best I can, the inside of the sink area unit as well, as the backing boards won't cover it.
I'll then leave getting the final sink plumbing and appliance connection till early next week and then get some vinyl flooring.
Mainly the fitter will have to cut the worktop to the breakfast bar/worktop curve we want and fit doors, handles, plinths and bracket the worktop down + seal wet areas.
Moving off topic a little, I'm judging by your panic that this is your first baby.
Relax! Nurseries aren't essential. Overnight bags take minutes to pack you might not even need it.
There is nothing in your control that is truly worth worrying about so try and look forward to what is about to happen rather than a bit of turmoil now. You WILL feel a lot better.
The baby won't give a monkey's where it sleeps or what the kitchen looks like. But it will sense you getting stressed.
Been there, done that, wife got the T shirt.
Relax! Nurseries aren't essential. Overnight bags take minutes to pack you might not even need it.
There is nothing in your control that is truly worth worrying about so try and look forward to what is about to happen rather than a bit of turmoil now. You WILL feel a lot better.
The baby won't give a monkey's where it sleeps or what the kitchen looks like. But it will sense you getting stressed.
Been there, done that, wife got the T shirt.
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