Rented Housing and 17th edi. electric.

[stardanny]

Hi.
As you know I'm a plumber in Housing Trust, I have been asked to be a void Inspector as he have retired after 35 years services with us. I have know more about voids work and letting standard hence why they asked me.
I said that I will think about it and I have till March to say yes or no, as there may be a problem as I am deaf.

The question is: Does all rented houses, bungalow and flats has to confirm to 17th Edition regulations before relet it?

We were talking about this looked in IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition and it not very clear about this, he will contact IEE for more information.

Also I have decided that I would like to start a course on electric work and my work will pay for the course as well as G3. Where do I do next? Where the best college?
Thanks.
Dan

 

[JohnD]

not being funny, but eyesight is more important for electricians than hearing (you must be able to identify colours well).

 

[stardanny]

No worried, I can read and identify colours well ( 20:20 ), thanks. I'm a plumber so I'm doing well and want to learn more.

Dan.

 

[flameport]

The question is: Does all rented houses, bungalow and flats has to confirm to 17th Edition regulations before relet it?

No. Doesn't have to comply with the 17th edition, the 16th edition, or in fact any edition.

The landlord has a duty to ensure the electrical installation is safe and fit for purpose.
Complying with BS7671 is one way of showing this. However it likely that most installations will not meet the current 17th edition, as they were probably designed and installed to the 16th or earlier editions.

Fir for purpose would mean a suitable number of socket outlets, lights etc. For example, a kitchen with a single correctly installed socket outlet would be safe - until tenants plugged in 5 multiway adaptors due to the lack of outlets.

 

[ericmark]

The Part P is law but the BS7671:2008 is a recommendation but can be taken into a court of law.
Because of Part P most domestic electricians have to be a member of an overseeing organisation who in turn insist their members follow BS7671:2008.
But all houses do not need to comply. The only leaver is the supply authority should not connect up a supply to something which does not conform with safety standards but where the original supply was simply to a double pole isolator the supply authority could be unaware of any dangers.
Second is electricity at work act but this only covers where people work.
So if an electrician did a periodic inspection report and found a whole list of faults and as soon as he left the occupier turned the power back on there would be very little that could be done.
One may be able to get child protection agency to impound their children and if some one is injured then they may be able to take the person switching the power back on to court but law wise the powers are very low.
However if the landlord switch the power back on the powers are different.
In most cases if one tells some one the electrics are dangerous they will as soon as money allows get them fixed but as to forcing someone to get them fixed one will have a hard time.
Not sure on powers of fire service?
I have seen some pity bad installations in my time. And if the boss will not allow you to fix them you have only one option and that it to leave the job.
I was employed for a very short time delivering and installing cookers. They were contractors for a gas shop of some type and with gas cookers if the wall cupboard was 1/2 inch to close the guy showing me the ropes would not even get the appliance off the van. However with electric anything seemed to go. Isolators right above cooker, no earth impedance tests, no meters to do tests, not even a mega test. And time allowed would not let you do test anyway.
I did only thing I could and quit the job. 3 days I lasted. I am sure they got someone else to do it. As far as customers were concerned must be OK fitted by an electrician. Now yes you could do something under Part P but then there were no officials who could enforce the regulations.
Although no new jobs like that there are still a load of old ones.
And I am told not sure how true. If I go into a house and see an electrical safety issue and turn off the power to heating etc. I can be taken to court for doing it as I may be endangering occupants due to the cold.
If with permission I turn off power then find a fault and refuse to re-instate it that may be OK. But can't turn off without permission of house holder. Yet on an industrial site where I find danger I can turn off the power even it the managing directors forbids it. (Although I would not try it) And if I don't remove the power I could end up in court for not turning it off.
This is how I see the law. I hope I am completely wrong and it has all now changed. But I will not be holding my breath?

 

[gtelectrical]

hi

just a couple of things with regard to the original post.

I have just completed some electrical training (C&G2391 + regs) amongst other things, and was told that a landlord MUST have a periodic done at every change of occupancy. Guidance Note 3 mentions it too.

The health and safety at work act, has an overiding remit for dangers not just in workplaces, but can be used to for domestic situations too, should the need arise. The advise I have received, upon seeing a dangerous instalation, that the householder refuses to recitfy, is to contact the HSE... Now i know that may sound extreme, but as an arse covering exercise, it may be a good idea..!

I am in the process of searching for a the actual bit of legislation for my own reference / ammunition that states a landlord MUST have a PIR.

The answer may well be in "Landlord and Tenant Act 1985", which is taking some plowing through at the moment, but is an important piece of legislation as it lays down the landlords responsibilities and establishes the duty of care of a landlord.
a snippet from section 11 of the act:
"(the landlord must) keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the dwellinghouse for the supply of water, gas and electricity and for sanitation (including basins, sinks, baths and sanitary conveniences, but not other fixtures, fittings and appliances for making use of the supply of water, gas or electricity). "
[

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am in the process of searching for a the actual bit of legislation for my own reference / ammunition that states a landlord MUST have a PIR.

Here

 

[securespark]

http://rapidshare.com/files/199936698/wind.mp3]

 

[gtelectrical]

can you try that link again please, it went to some wierd site..?

 

[sm1thson]

BAS's link is to a download site, the file linked to it entitled wind.mp3 so is presumably the sound of wind. I presume this is wind that may accompany a tumbleweed or possibly hot air.[/list]

 

[JohnD]

 

[me01]

hi

just a couple of things with regard to the original post.

I have just completed some electrical training (C&G2391 + regs) amongst other things, and was told that a landlord MUST have a periodic done at every change of occupancy. Guidance Note 3 mentions it too.

The health and safety at work act, has an overiding remit for dangers not just in workplaces, but can be used to for domestic situations too, should the need arise. The advise I have received, upon seeing a dangerous instalation, that the householder refuses to recitfy, is to contact the HSE... Now i know that may sound extreme, but as an a**e covering exercise, it may be a good idea..!

I am in the process of searching for a the actual bit of legislation for my own reference / ammunition that states a landlord MUST have a PIR.

The answer may well be in "Landlord and Tenant Act 1985", which is taking some plowing through at the moment, but is an important piece of legislation as it lays down the landlords responsibilities and establishes the duty of care of a landlord.
a snippet from section 11 of the act:
"(the landlord must) keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the dwellinghouse for the supply of water, gas and electricity and for sanitation (including basins, sinks, baths and sanitary conveniences, but not other fixtures, fittings and appliances for making use of the supply of water, gas or electricity). "
[

As already pointed out, by others, BS7671:2008 is a recommendation. How often, and when a PIR should be done, is therefore a recommendation. The enforcement comes indirectly, from agencies letting out the accomodation for the landlord and requesting PIR from the landlord, citing "landlord and tenant", and insurance companies making PIR a requirement. The problem is, landlords can let by themselves, and will they let the insurance company know if the property is being let (the insurance premium is higher)?

 

[stardanny]

No. Doesn't have to comply with the 17th edition, the 16th edition, or in fact any edition.

Cheers, Thanks.
I just want to know about this as some electrican contractor sometime saying this need done, that need done to conform to 17th edition, let say, a house been rewired to 16th edition in 2004 has become vacant and we come in to do repair and the electric system is safe, had a PIR, no problem and relet. But they saying it need RCBO on fuseboard even it is safe under 16th edition. Which is right, leave as it is after passing PIR or upgrade to 17th on all?

Dan.

BTW, where I work own 8600 houses, bungalows and flats and some shops. Yes, ex-council.

As far as I know, we are required to give new tenant a copy of PIR, CP12 and EPC before they move in.

 

[me01]

The question is: Does all rented houses, bungalow and flats has to confirm to 17th Edition regulations before relet it?

No. Doesn't have to comply with the 17th edition, the 16th edition, or in fact any edition.

My understanding, as well, that an upgrade to 17th edition, or 16th edition previously, etc., is not a requirement, nor a recommendation. Any upgrade needs to be considered when any work is carried out on the electrics.

 

[Taylortwocities]

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/electrical_safety.htm

has a great overview.

ME01 is correct. Regs versions are not retrospective. If you do a PIR then you report on any deviations from the regs version in force at the time (BS7671 2008 right now).
Items that are now in the regs (eg RCD protetion for concealed cables) but not in place in the installation being inspected would be noted as a code 4 in the report.

If new work is done then it must be done to the current regs.
(Lets set aside any arguements that BS7671 is not statutory, please.....)