Replacing gas with hydrogen.

[Mottie]

I’m watching an article on the news about the people of Whitby that have refused to take part in a trial where they have all their gas replaced with 'green' hydrogen. I think it said they needed their boilers changed too. I only caught the tail end of it but they were saying that they had done their research and found out that it’s very dangerous. Gas is dangerous too though - is hydrogen more so? I thought hydrogen was going to be the green fuel if the future - what’s your thoughts on it?

 

[bernardgreen]

Whitby revised offer for Hydrogen Village trial | Cadent

Whitby residents revised offer for Hydrogen Village trial

cadentgas.com

I recall from a few years ago that a protest group published information about hydrogen dioxide being a hazardous by product of burning hydrogen.

 

[securespark]

Water?

Burning hydrogen in oxygen produces water.

You would need to replace hardware as nat gas appliances would not be able to burn hydrogen.

You also need high pressure tanks to store it.

 

[gas112]

hydrogen is far more dangerous than methane the explosive limits are are far wider .
gas 5 to 15% in air
hydrogen about 4 to 75%
it is also what is referred to as a seeking gas due to the small size of its molecules and will find a leak in pipework that Gas wouldnt but it disperses quicker so explosive situations clear quicker .
it also burns nearly invisibly so they have to put a chemical in to see the flame .
At present there is a big trial using an 80% gas to 20% hydrogen going on that basically needs no changes to appliances or safety criteria.
Whitbys concern is they were going to be taken off the national grid and the hydrogen or electricity if they chose that was to be subsidized for only 2 years to the same price as gas then it would pay the going rate with no chance of changing back to gas.
Cant see sole use of hyrogen being enforced due to costs involved but when did governments ever worry about joe public

 

[Odds]

Whitby revised offer for Hydrogen Village trial | Cadent

Whitby residents revised offer for Hydrogen Village trial

cadentgas.com

I recall from a few years ago that a protest group published information about hydrogen dioxide being a hazardous by product of burning hydrogen.

From the link...

Future of Gas: Here at Cadent we support the Government’s plans to reach Net Zero by 2050. That means we’re backing the introduction of hydrogen as a low carbon alternative to natural gas for the future. We know people love the controllability of gas and, with our network already in place, it makes sense to switch to the lower carbon alternative offered by hydrogen, which we believe can keep homes and businesses warm for generations to come.

They've thrown alot of sugar into the deal for sweetening up the residents to take part in this scheme but it looks like another fracking deal: plausible on paper...'til it all blows up in your face.

 

[RandomGrinch]

hydrogen dioxide

NOx?,
Some discussion here:

Any thoughts on the future of heating?

I had my gas combi 'serviced' yesterday and was quizzing the engineer about what the future might hold after the gas boiler ban comes into effect. Apart from finding out that he was clueless! (Suggesting I could run an electric combi from the existing ring and advocating the use of ASHP's), I...

www.diynot.com

There's also the matter of efficiency, even with Green Hydrogen - convert electricity to H2, pump it through a lossy pipe system, burn it inefficiently in our homes - it's far more efficient to just use the electricity straight from the source.

it is also what is referred to as a seeking gas due to the small size of its molecules and will find a leak in pipework that Gas wouldnt but it disperses quicker so explosive situations clear quicker .
it also burns nearly invisibly so they have to put a chemical in to see the flame .

As it is such a light molecule, it is also impossible to add odourants to it, they just wouldn't be carried along with the flow of gas.

And Hydrogen is far more likely to suffer from flashbacks - i.e. a flame could travel back down through pipework from an ignition source, but flashback arrestors can be installed.

 

[motorbiking]

hydrogen dioxide - is basically peroxide.

 

[gas112]

As it is such a light molecule, it is also impossible to add odourants to it, they just would be carried along with the flow of gas.

And Hydrogen is far more likely to suffer from flashbacks - i.e. a flame could travel back down through pipework from an ignition source, but flashback arrestors can be installed.

H21 | Hydrogen to smell like natural gas for the first time

h21.green

.
No way would they allow it to be used without a smell , far too dangerous

 

[RandomGrinch]

H21 | Hydrogen to smell like natural gas for the first time

h21.green

.
No way would they allow it to be used without a smell , far too dangerous

Thanks, my research may be a little out of date...

Albeit from 2013, this is a really interesting paper -

Conversion of the UK gas system to transport hydrogen​

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319913006800

 

[IT Minion]

Hydrogen is going to be a useful part of the move to Next Zero.

It isn't going to be piped to people's houses.

Natural gas is moderately awkward to use to heat homes. We've spent a lot of time making infrastructure and training people how to use it and maintain it. And still people die as a result of mistakes. It has been worth it as it has been cheap, effective and plentiful.

Hydrogen is harder to store and transport in every way. By the time you've upgraded the infrastructure to handle it you'll have spent enough to build out the power grid, refurb a gas turbine to burn hydrogen and install heat pumps which are cheaper to run. Then you can use the turbine to cover low wind periods and cheap wind the rest of the time.

 

[IT Minion]

Whitby revised offer for Hydrogen Village trial | Cadent

Whitby residents revised offer for Hydrogen Village trial

cadentgas.com

I recall from a few years ago that a protest group published information about hydrogen dioxide being a hazardous by product of burning hydrogen.

Dihydrogen Monoxide. It killed >50 people in the UK last year.

 

[gas112]

Hydrogen is going to be a useful part of the move to Next Zero.

It isn't going to be piped to people's houses.

How are they getting it to the people houses on the trial when it finally takes place cant see blue toothing it working

 

[IT Minion]

They're laying parallel pipes according to the article. I think the original plan was to reuse the existing gas pipes. Which means they must have found a way to avoid embrittlement.

 

[blup]

JCB are investing heavily in hydrogen fuelled plant and seemed to have produced very efficient prototypes. They accept that storage and transport are issues. JCB seem to swim against the tide on certain things so they could dominate the market if they have as good a head start as seems to be the case. All for it if it helps British jobs.

Blup

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Pushy pushy us in the right direction until we comply

Gas bills could rise £100 and electricity costs fall under green push

Ministers are looking to 'rebalance' levies on the main two types of energy, encouraging people to use electricity.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Near me they're running an initiative where some households (if eligible) will get all the kit installed for free and £1k for participating.

A world-first green hydrogen project from SGN | H100 Fife

SGN's H100 Fife project is a pioneering green hydrogen-to-homes net zero heating network powered by clean offshore wind: a key part of our clean energy future.

www.h100fife.co.uk

I can foresee how this will play out. More and more households will have setups like the heat pump thingy that requires the outdoor unit that quietly whirrs away ... as long as it's properly maintained. Thing is some folk won't keep them properly maintained, meaning the whirr will become louder and louder. Imagine that in a built-up area in the depth of night, dozens of these outdoor units whirring away keeping you awake. Lovely ...