Scrap Part P?

[1john]

Ftting seat belts and air bags in vehicles does not improove safety, unless you crash..... although no one takes to the road with an aim to crash do they.

To have stopped all this they should have blanket banned people doing wiring that wern't qualified and members of a scheme, like gas safe / corgi, this way it would be harder for people to complain. I wonder if all this fuss was made when they stopped people doing their own gas work.

(I know you can do gas work in your own property if you are deemed to be competent, although whats the best way to prove competance, i suppose by being qualified)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Gas is much less pervasive and much more static in people’s homes than electricity. By that I mean that there are millions of houses where there are but one or two gas appliances (boiler & cooker), once installed they remain there for several years – longer, one hopes, if they’re well made. They don’t get moved about, or frequently replaced as part of a makeover. Gas pipes do not run throughout the house, and they don’t very often need rerouting. People don’t want to add the ability to control their gas cooker from two places. They don’t have gas lights that they’d like to replace with some stainless steel ones they bought in B&Q. They don’t want to run gas out to the garden and the shed to power lights, fountains and tools.

In short, there is nothing like the same need for people to make changes to their gas installation as there is with their electrical one. Restricting DIY electrical work is hugely more invasive than restricting DIY gas work.

 

[1john]

Hey, i am not saying it's right, i just think that if it were dont like that, the moaning would have been over with by now. People complaining about something they havent read is crazy. Part P is here, we know this, it's been five and a half years, it is quite straight forward, it could prevent deaths (like a seat belt), although you are never going to know that, you are going to hear about the cases where something went wrong and part p was ignored.

Also i tihnk a gas pipe gets slightly altered every time a kitchen gets refitted, same as the electrics. Out of curiosity, was corgi about when we were using gas lights??

 

[ColJack]

if they instead brought in yearly ( or bi / tri yearly ) house condition reports as mandatory then it would be better..

after all your car has to have an MOT every year to ensure it's safe ( continuing the analogy from earlier ), so why not your house?

 

[STI]

To probably throw a massive cat amongst the pigeons. Its the competent persons schemes i think need to be looked at.

If someone goes through all the time trouble and effort to sit their electrical exams and passes and gets their certificates or whatever is issued to confirm a pass, then why should they then have to pay fees to a body who then comes out and confirms they are competent for quite a high fee.

You pass your exams your competant, if you don't pass you are not competant.

When you leave your final exam point they should issue you with a "card" that states you are competent to carry out the following types of work, whatever they are.

As new things are bought into law you must go through the relevant training, be assessed by the training provider and if passed your competant and your card is updated.

With this type of system you could be trained up to whatever level you wish to achieve, say, repair and replacement, new circuit domestic new circuit industrial, New build design, rewire etc etc. Take the appropriate exams get the appropriate card and sign off your own work to that level.

No annual fees no need to get LABC involved

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If someone goes through all the time trouble and effort to sit their electrical exams and passes and gets their certificates or whatever is issued to confirm a pass, then why should they then have to pay fees to a body who then comes out and confirms they are competent for quite a high fee.

Because that was the whole point of it. It was the quite-a-high-fee charging bodies who lobbied for Part P so that they could increase the amount of money that they earned by increasing the number of quite-a-high-fees that they collected.

 

[STI]

Aha so it was a plot.

The training bodies should be assessed and in my opinion thats where the competent body schemes as they are now should be directing their efforts. Get the training right and you will get good competent people in the field. The bodies will get their fees but not from the hard working sole trader electricians.

 

[ebee]

If we rely on exams only (be it theory or practical or both) then how often should we sit them?

Yearly, 5 yearly, once in a lifetime ?

if we do them say 5ish yearly as regs change sufficiently then surely some monitoring in between should be sought on a sample of works done and the requirements for calibrated test gear and regs books and insurance and warranties etc etc.

Hey , just a min! that's what we got now.

Why so many whingers?

yer gotta have some method of ensuring things are updated , no matter how flawed that method might be.

If you think the course fees are way too high I'm not arguing with you on that and ditto the scheme fees it might be said.

Anyone got a better plan (other than you serve your time and that's it forever with no more checks and updates)?

 

[mbga9pgf]

How about we stop nancying around and let people get on with their lives without interference from the state?

I suggest you all look at the top part of the following website:

http://www.communities.gov.uk/plann...ionalcircularletters/buildingregulationspart/

 

[ban-all-sheds]

How about we stop nancying around and let people get on with their lives without interference from the state?

And how about you confine your discussions on this forum to electrical matters, and electrically-related issues, and if you want to bang on about not wanting to have any laws at all then take that off to the rest of the tinfoil-hat brigade on the GD forum?

 

[STI]

ebee, Not whinging just trying to make some suggestions to get a system that delivers quality at a fair price to all.

Although i am a supporter of the apprenticeship concept, in a recession firms cant afford them, in a recession you have older people being made redundant(yes this was me) who want to change a career but are too old for apprenticeships. These people need to earn a wage and cant afford long apprenticeships.

So training and costs. If you take module size chunks but completion of each module does allow you to go out and work if necessary on your own, with a level of competency that is acceptable, in order that you gain experience in that area then thats a good thing.

So say electrician stage 1. After a four week course you can go out add a socket to a circuit, inside or out in any room or location but perhaps only on 230v domestic, do repairs and carry out the appropriate tests and provide the paperwork. For some this would be all they want to do.

Electrician level 2, six week course.Complete rewires and fault finding, domestic only. Again for some thats all they want so would now stop training at this point. Their cards would state this is what they can do (bit more than a domestic installer grade i think) so they cant go off into 410v or industrial or commercial.

Level 3 410v systems 3 phase and so on. At successful completion of each stage you get a competant person certificate from the training body.

Other than the fact the idea gets rid of the need to join a body at one of two levels either of which cost hundreds of pounds over and above your training costs this way you only pay out for the training you need. And yes every 5 years you go for a skills assessment relevant to the level your are "qualified" for and priced accordingly. So someone at level 1 pays lets say 250 for training and every 5 years £75 for re-assesment. Level two training has cost £700 (level 1 250 level 2 450) but in between the two courses the individual has had the opportunity to go out and earn some cash to pay for the next training and most importantly get experience and get to know what they don't know so they can get answers to the questions they dididn'tven think of. Assessment cost £130 includes level 1 assesment.

Currently the training courses outside of apapprenticeshipchemes means you get crammed with a lot of information and can come out and do work but you come out with very very very limited experience and not knowing what you don't know.

My suggested approach also gets rid of the problem currently of needing to get a couple of meaty jobs to be assessed upon which you cant do unless you add on a LABC fee and you therefore become uncompetitive and don't get the jobs to be assessed upon so you cant be assessed.

The competent bodies role in my world, is to police and assess the training establishments and work with them to set the pass standards to meet latest requirements. They should not be doing this from the perspective of making money but from the perspective of ensuring levels of quality are met and maintained via the training in the first place.

The costs become reasonable and budgetable and if this is the case perhaps people would be more willing to go the right route rather than become a cowboy electrician.

Enough i need a cup of tea

 

[dingbat]

Training. My experience.

Every week I encounter 'fully qualified', apprentice-trained electricians who do not understand simple concepts such as circuit design, earthing and bonding.

This is because, even during their apprenticeship, many trainees treat their college days as days off. The drink a skinful the night before and sleep it off in class, then scrape a pass with help from tutors and lots of cramming.

The best of the time-served electricians are retained in the industrial & commercial sectors by medium-to-large companies who invest in continuous professional development. These are not the people you invite into your home to carry out electrical work - many would consider domestic work beneath them.

No, in the domestic field there are a few committed, dedicated, knowledgeable 'electricians' but very many more muppets and charlatans who have either no qualifications or decades-old, forgotten partial credits and a poor grasp of their 'trade'. Lots and lots and lots of so-called electricians are really sparkies' mates at best and very likely to be dangerous chancers - some of them write books about earthing and bonding (sorry, couldn't resist that dig).

I simply do not agree that an examination and practical assessment taken at the age of around 20 is any guarantee of competence. And without regular reassessment of actual work carried out there is no reliable way of
identifying further training needs in order to maintain standards. MOST electricians trading in the domestic market have shortfalls they are not even aware of.

The proof is out there in [probably] 50% of the entire UK housing stock.

 

[RF Lighting]

Does anyone remember my picture of the week feature?

I used to work for a firm doing probably 40% domestic and 60% commercial work.

I would without fail find at least one unsafe domestic installation every week, and post the photos here.

I no longer do any domestic work at all, and this is the only reason I stopped the feature.

 

[STI]

Dingbat, i think we are in agreement.

Continual assessment is needed but and i do say this as a person who does like to do things correctly, professionally and deliver an excellent service to my customers in whatever i do, i do object to it costing £600 ish a year . I dont want to rewire a neuclear power plant, i dont even want to design a shop lighting system so why should i have to pay more or less the same as someone who does want to do this and therefore should be assessed in far more depth than me.

Then if someone is assessed as competent are they really going to go so far off the rails in 12 months,as to become incompetent, i cant see it. So i agree you cant get trained at 20, 30 40 and even 50 and still be up to date 10 years later without further training and yes you should be assessed but sorry i cannot see justification for it being annually and at such a high cost that is applied to all.

Or if it is annually make the charge/cost more reasonable or even do it anominously ie. select a job that has been recorded that year and visit it without the electrician then send an assessment report to the electrician for action and discussion.

By the way where do you train and do you take on older students. Genuine interest and asked out of respect. Sorry if its breaking the rules asking the question.

 

[ebee]

Good one Dingbat.

RF yes they were classics - I do miss them - sadly we know they are true 'cos we've seen such ourselves.
I'd be suprised if you not seen any at all in the non domestic scenario though