Shock news! Boris Lies (again)

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What is frustrating at the moment is that leavers have moved the narrative.

MPs are as just as much to blame as the public for doing this.

Brexiteers go on about how the majoroty of MPs are remainers so are preventing Brexit.

What they dont talk about is the real issues surrounding Brexit -like the UK becoming a weaker country. Or the cost and economic impact of disentangling 40 plus years of trade.
 
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Notch7 said:
What they dont talk about is the real issues surrounding Brexit -like the UK becoming a weaker country. Or the cost and economic impact of disentangling 40 plus years of trade.
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We don’t have to become a weaker country and I think the cost of disentangling 40 years of trade, if that’s what will really happen, will be a price worth paying. Yes, there may be a bit of hardship in the beginning, of course it will - they’ve got to frighten any weaker countries from going the same route, but I don’t think it won’t last forever.

Mind you, do you really think the EU would be so insistent on countries such as Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Malta if they were thinking of leaving? You wouldn’t hear them saying “Please stay and keep taking more out of the pot than you put in”! It would be a case of “Ok, goodbye. Nice to have known you”.
 
Vinty said:
America is booming under Trump.
The UK could be great again after brexit but it won't because remainers are to afraid of life life after the EU.
Most remainers suffer from a national form of the Stockholm syndrome, even though their country is being ripped off and humiliated by the EU they still cling to notion that the EU really loves them.
The loss of national self confidence is palpable everywhere you look.
The union of the UK and the EU now resembles the Union of Scotland and the UK.
Most Scots I suspect would be quite happy as an independent state however the fear of having to survive outside the comfort zone of the Union makes them wary of voting to leave.
The constant moaning from the remainer population that an independent UK would be a disaster shows how entrenched this mendicant mentality has become.
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You don't even argue from a point of facts. So tell me what exactly has Trump in two years done to make it booming. So it wasn't booming before Trump?

Can you define when the UK was last great? And how we can return to that greatness. You do like repeating Trumpesque mantra - perhaps it appeals to a certain mentality?

What is this concept of national self confidence - how does it manifest itself?

The UK is independent already.

Time to update your hymn sheet.
 
Motman said:
We don’t have to become a weaker country and I think the cost of disentangling 40 years of trade, if that’s what will really happen, will be a price worth paying. Yes, there may be a bit of hardship in the beginning, of course it will - they’ve got to frighten any weaker countries from going the same route, but I don’t think it won’t last forever.

Mind you, do you really think the EU would be so insistent on countries such as Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Malta if they were thinking of leaving? You wouldn’t hear them saying “Please stay and keep taking more out of the pot than you put in”! It would be a case of “Ok, goodbye. Nice to have known you”.
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Don't have to - sure but with Brexit we chose to. You have continually not put one coherent argument for Brexit forward. Even your saviour Rees Mogg when pushed said perhaps the benefits will come in 50 yrs.

Price worth paying for what? You never seem to define anything - just leave it up in the air on a wing and a prayer.

A country that has considered leaving was Greece but in the end it decided against it and it was a net taker - the EU made it difficult for them to remain but they decided it was still better to remain than leave.

Your arguments seem to be formed on the back of a fag packet and you wonder why you have such a shallow understanding of the issues.
 
Unfortunately this is not an argument with any outcome.

Pro-Europeans speak of the economic and social benefits of being major partners in a strong union. They point out the loss of influence and more difficult trading conditions of a no-deal. They speak of the damage to the Financial Services industry that contributes more than our entire manufacturing sector. They describe the onerous terms that will be imposed on us by the mighty, self-centred USA. They criticise the lies and U-turns by populist politicians.

Anti-Europeans are not interested in these things. You might as well try to persuade a football supporter that Sheffield Wednesday is not such a good team as Accrington Stanley. Their mind is made up and they are not interested in the facts from a non-footballer.

If change comes in the nation, it is likely to be because the UK now holds the strongest and most-committed pro-Europe movement in the world, and it grows every day. More than seven hundred thousand citizens come of voting age every year, and they are overwhelmingly anti-Brexit. As the previous referendum fades further into the past, it becomes less relevant and loses its legitamacy.

The Tory party is now the refuge of the old and angry. They will not change their minds. The Provisional Wing of the Conservative Party, led by Rice-Pudd and Buffoon, has been allowed to become dominant, and repels moderate voters.
 
Motman said:
We don’t have to become a weaker country and I think the cost of disentangling 40 years of trade, if that’s what will really happen, will be a price worth paying. Yes, there may be a bit of hardship in the beginning, of course it will - they’ve got to frighten any weaker countries from going the same route, but I don’t think it won’t last forever.

Mind you, do you really think the EU would be so insistent on countries such as Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Malta if they were thinking of leaving? You wouldn’t hear them saying “Please stay and keep taking more out of the pot than you put in”! It would be a case of “Ok, goodbye. Nice to have known you”.
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Yes I can see the points you make -I do feel that way somewhat, I did vote leave.

The EU doesnt want the UK to leave, yes it has somewhat to do with money, but it is also because the UK has been a key player in the development of the EU.

The biggest issue is that the UK has been an attractive economic region, because of its alliance with the EU not in spite of it.

I know the EU had drveloped into a political union, with players like Macron wanting more centralisation. However if you contrast the risks of being in the EU and its federal ambition and contrast it with the economic damage of leaving, the sensible option is to stay in.

The cost of EU membership is actually pretty small and easily offset by the huge single market trade.

I think one of the problems is that remainers dont acknowledge the concerns that leavers have with the EU -it should be discussed more, clearly there are those at the heart of the EU that want more integration, but balance that with many of the 27 actively campaiging for limiting integration.

Its a shame that leavers and remainers have got stuck in an entrenched narrative, which is stopping a proper debate of the real issues.
 
Notch7 said:
Yes I can see the points you make -I do feel that way somewhat, I did vote leave.

The EU doesnt want the UK to leave, yes it has somewhat to do with money, but it is also because the UK has been a key player in the development of the EU.

The biggest issue is that the UK has been an attractive economic region, because of its alliance with the EU not in spite of it.

I know the EU had drveloped into a political union, with players like Macron wanting more centralisation. However if you contrast the risks of being in the EU and its federal ambition and contrast it with the economic damage of leaving, the sensible option is to stay in.

The cost of EU membership is actually pretty small and easily offset by the huge single market trade.

I think one of the problems is that remainers dont acknowledge the concerns that leavers have with the EU -it should be discussed more, clearly there are those at the heart of the EU that want more integration, but balance that with many of the 27 actively campaiging for limiting integration.

Its a shame that leavers and remainers have got stuck in an entrenched narrative, which is stopping a proper debate of the real issues.
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The UK helped form and push so many of the laws and policies like the Single Market and kept the EU being essentially more pro business.

In the 1980s, when the economy of the EEC began to lag behind the rest of the developed world, Margaret Thatcher sent Arthur Cockfield, Baron Cockfield, to the Delors Commission to take the initiative to attempt to relaunch the common market. Cockfield wrote and published a White Paper in 1985 identifying 300 measures to be addressed in order to complete a single market.[11][12][13] The White Paper was well received and led to the adoption of the Single European Act, a treaty which reformed the decision-making mechanisms of the EEC and set a deadline of 31 December 1992 for the completion of a single market. In the end, it was launched on 1 January 1993.

Maggy was many things and being Pro European was one of them. Like Most leaders she was a mix of good and bad policies.
 
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