Should downstairs sockets be on the same ring as upstairs?

[cegueira]

I have been removing wallpaper with a steamer so have been disconnecting sockets/light switches in the room to avoid any electrical problems. When I disconnected one of the sockets I noticed that all the sockets upstairs went off.

I just wanted to know if this is a normal/safe way of wiring a house.

Thanks.

 

[EFLImpudence]

It could do that if you had already left another socket disconnected.

Depends what you mean by normal; some houses are like this - perfectly alright.
If you only have one ring circuit then that's the way it is.


You should really have connected the wires at each disconnected socket to maintain the ring but as long as you don't use a lot of appliances while it is like this it won't matter for a short time.

 

[cegueira]

It could do that if you had already left another socket disconnected.

Depends what you mean by normal; some houses are like this - perfectly alright.
If you only have one ring circuit then that's the way it is.


You should really have connected the wires at each disconnected socket to maintain the ring but as long as you don't use a lot of appliances while it is like this it won't matter for a short time.

Thanks, I just disconnected the socket and noticed another set of wires. I reconnected everything after finishing and it was fine. Think the fridge was the only thing running downstairs at the time.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I just wanted to know if this is a normal/safe way of wiring a house.

It's a lot safer than your practice of disconnecting sockets while they are still live.

Did it not occur to you that that might be dangerous?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I just disconnected the socket and noticed another set of wires.

What do you mean by "another set of wires"?

If there's one ring for both floors then none of the sockets will have more than 2 cables, unless there's a spur from it.

How many cables are there?

 

[cegueira]

Here are two pictures of the socket:

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• cegueira
• 16 Oct 2014
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Untitled

• cegueira
• 16 Oct 2014
• 1

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I can only see the one set of cables one would expect to see at any socket on a ring final, or indeed a radial circuit apart from the "last" socket.

What is it that you can see that does not show on the photograph?

When you removed that socket, and therefore separated L and/or N, which other sockets stopped working?

What is the rating of the fuse/MCB for the circuit that socket is on?

BTW - I can also see 2 earth wires which should be untwisted and sleeved G/Y.

 

[JohnW2]

I just wanted to know if this is a normal/safe way of wiring a house.

It's a lot safer than your practice of disconnecting sockets while they are still live.

If that were the OP's practice, it would obviously be very dangerous. However, you seem to be 'assuming' ('the worst' - albeit you will probably say that was on the basis of the strict meaning of the OP's words).

If I (or one of the 'forum regulars') had written "When I disconnected one of the sockets I noticed that all the sockets upstairs went off", would you have taken that to mean that the circuit was live whilst the socket was being disconnected?

Kind Regards, John

 

[AndyPRK]

Is it just me? or does that look like 1.5mm2 cable ?

 

[JohnW2]

Is it just me? or does that look like 1.5mm2 cable ?

I wouldn't put any money on it, either way.

In passing, I've never really understood why the regs require a minimum of 2.5mm² (except for MICC) for a ring final. If, as is the case, 2.5mm² is acceptable so long as its CCC is not downrated to less than 20A, what's wrong with 'clipped direct' 1.5mm² (CCC=20A per Table 4D5)? Surely, it's the CCC that matters?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If that were the OP's practice, it would obviously be very dangerous. However, you seem to be 'assuming' ('the worst' - albeit you will probably say that was on the basis of the strict meaning of the OP's words).

I'll leave it to you to torment yourself over how "strict" you consider simply reading what is written to be, and how much inability to write accurately we should assume, and how many imaginary meanings we should ascribe to what people have written.

If I (or one of the 'forum regulars') had written "When I disconnected one of the sockets I noticed that all the sockets upstairs went off", would you have taken that to mean that the circuit was live whilst the socket was being disconnected?

Yes, because there is no other way of noticing sockets going off WHEN you disconnect something except to be doing the disconnection live.

There really isn't.

 

[cegueira]

To clear up a few things:

1: I turned the switch off at the fuse box.
2: I tested all wires with a multimeter, then a neon screwdriver.
3: Disconnected the socket, which had 2 live wires, 2 neutral wires and 2 twisted earth wires.
4: Turned supply back on
5: Completed the wallpaper steaming

After doing this, I noticed that the upstairs sockets weren't on (Because the light on a 4-way extension in the bedroom was off). However all the other sockets downstairs seemed to be working.

The MCB for the circuit is 32A.

 

[JohnW2]

(... albeit you will probably say that was on the basis of the strict meaning of the OP's words). ... If I (or one of the 'forum regulars') had written "When I disconnected one of the sockets I noticed that all the sockets upstairs went off", would you have taken that to mean that the circuit was live whilst the socket was being disconnected?

Yes, because there is no other way of noticing sockets going off WHEN you disconnect something except to be doing the disconnection live. ... There really isn't.

I thought as much

If one is going to be that strict in one's interpretation of words, is it not very unlikely that someone disconnecting a live socket down stairs would notice that upstairs sockets went off WHEN (i.e. immediately) the downstairs socket was disconnected?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

To clear up a few things:
1: I turned the switch off at the fuse box.
...
4: Turned supply back on
After doing this, I noticed that the upstairs sockets weren't on ...

As I suspected, despite some people choosing to take the strict meaning of your words to mean something different, and thereby giving them something to moan about!

... However all the other sockets downstairs seemed to be working.

That's interesting, and I don't think you mentioned that before. That suggests that either the upstairs and downstairs sockets are on the same radial circuit (I would have suspected fairly unlikely) or that they are on the same ring circuit, but that ring has a 'break' in it somewhere that needs to be investigated and rectified.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

When I turned the power back on after having disconnected one of the sockets I noticed that all the sockets upstairs were not working

rather than saying that you noticed they went off when you disconnected.



Anyway...

Disconnected the socket, which had 2 live wires, 2 neutral wires and 2 twisted earth wires.

Nothing there which could be described as "another set of wires"

http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html

http://images.google.com/images?q=uk+domestic+socket+circuits

Turned supply back on

What did you do with the cables that had been in the socket? If you separated them and still had power to all the downstairs sockets then that would indicate that you have a ring, or a radial and that's the last socket downstairs.

But if that socket is on a ring, it can have nothing to do with the upstairs ones, there aren't enough cables.

If it's on a radial and is the last one downstairs, it should not be on a 32A breaker (dangerous).

The last possibility is that it's a spur from a ring and all the upstairs sockets are also on the spur, which if unfused is also dangerous.