Shower MCB trips.

If a breaker does jam closed in a fault current situation though (quite unlikely), in a house, then the fuse provided by the electricity supply company should opperate before anything actually bursts into flame
So 1mm² T/E will carry any current that will go through a 100A service fuse, will it, for the amount of time that the service fuse will pass it, without getting hot enough to start a fire?

Probably not if the fault is at the far end of the circuit :oops: , and impedances are high, currents lower and disconnection times longer and dispated I²t higher... I must admit I based my thinking on fault current of pretty high magnatude (a couple of ka), the numbers work then and nothing catches fire, unfortunatly in my haste to be clever I forgot to consider what would happen if the fault was a tad more than 2' from the DB :oops:

If the fault current is lower then due to the impedance of the circuit then the protective device in the CU should be able to cope, depending on it's Icu rating.
 
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Indeed if breakers fail to disconnect a fault due to insufficent breaking capacity, and are correctly backed up then there is probably little risk of fire, which is perhaps what I had on my mind earlier. But I assume here we are supposed to be considering a breaker failing to operate due to mechanical damage, or being incorrectly constructed, etc ?
 
Indeed if breakers fail to disconnect a fault due to insufficent breaking capacity, and are correctly backed up then there is probably little risk of fire, which is perhaps what I had on my mind earlier. But I assume here we are supposed to be considering a breaker failing to operate due to mechanical damage, or being incorrectly constructed, etc ?

The we could be in deep do-do... :LOL:
 
So 1mm² T/E will carry any current that will go through a 100A service fuse, will it, for the amount of time that the service fuse will pass it, without getting hot enough to start a fire?


How long would it take for a 100A service fuse to fail with a current draw of 140A?


Longer than this?
 
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Thanks, Adam. At least I am reassured that in using MCB and RCD protection, I have done what I can to protect my installation- and my house!
You can do no more.

But just think - every time you buy a house which is not brand new you are buying a bunch of used circuit breakers on which your life depends...

. . . . .
asantamq6.gif


How long would it take for a 100A service fuse to fail with a current draw of 140A?


Longer than this?
Oh - a lot longer... :evil:
 
I have had a few MCB failures, but none MK.

Geweiss & Protek. Both YUKKY brands.... ;)
 
Enough arm waving from me, I'll put some real numbers in ;)

Of course 140A is going to cook a 1mm before a 100A fuse operates but but I suppose its just a rather big overload :LOL:

I'l admit that at the time, I was thinking of a large fault current welding the breaker shut. if you take the current required to operate a BS1361 in 0.1s, that is 1800A and calculate the I²t, you'll get 324,000 (a larger current will result in faster time, and lower I²t value, calculate it for 0.2, 0.4 second etc to prove that they are larger - the I²t tends towards an asymptote value as times get quicker)

Anyway, for a cable to be worth using afterwards, the I²t needs to not exceed the k²S² of the cable, for a loaded T+E at 70 allowed to reach 160 during a fault, k is 115, which gives a minimum size of 4.9mm² to be perfectly fine after the fault, so your cooker circuits and shower circuits will be fine, if the cable isn't loaded, the K value is 143, and anything above 3.9mm will be fine to use again, as to preventing fires, rather than saving cables, if we assume a k value of 166 which is for an unloaded thermosetting rubber cable allowed to reach 220degrees during a fault, which is roughly the temperature paper ignites at (though we can asusme the pvc insulation wont be too well afterwards!) this gives a value of s of 3.42mm².

This is where we get into guesswork again, the temperatures we are refering to are the temperatures of the the copper core and in this case for a tenth of a second, it would be reasonable to assume that stored materials resting against the cable would not be exposed to a temperature equal to this, though how you'd go about estimating numbers for this, I'm not sure!
 
Latest update: The replacement MCB is now tripping, so clearly the fault seems to be with the shower unit itself and not the MCB. Good news is that the unit is under warranty so I hope the Aqualisa service organisation is as good as it is cracked up to be.
The good thing is that the protective devices in the circuit appear to have done what they were designed to do. I'm still a bit puzzled as to what sort of fault would cause the replacement MCB to start tripping afetr a couple of days during which the shower was used several times rather than straight away.
 

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