shower not earthed

Indeed - but, as EFLI is effectively asking, why?
That I don't know, and I've never put a lot of thought into it because I've never wanted to, and therefore never wondered if I could, not have a cpc connected.

I guess because it is the concern of raising the water to a potential WRT earth. They do make metal hand-held shower heads, and it's not exactly unlikely that a very wet person could be grasping that and have their foot on a metal waste.
 
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I guess because it is the concern of raising the water to a potential WRT earth. They do make metal hand-held shower heads, and it's not exactly unlikely that a very wet person could be grasping that and have their foot on a metal waste.
Thank you, a good point if a foolish product.
 
Ok. I did say yes to the OP and chastise his father for not connecting the CPC.
A chastisement which he richly deserved. But not because failing to connect the cpc would damage the shower.


I was also mocked for saying if that is so then a CPC would be unnecessary.
Well yes, because saying that would mean that you thought the cpc was there to protect the shower from being damaged.


Can you have it both ways?
We're all men of the world. I'm sure you aren't the only one here who wants to have it both ways in the shower.


Since then, as I appear to have been wrong with that 'yes', I have been trying to get someone to answer why, if it will not lead to anything damaging the shower, a CPC is required.
Because it's a Class I appliance.


There are no exposed-c-ps on a shower - with plastic pipes.
What if they are not plastic?
 
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Indeed - but, as EFLI is effectively asking, why?
That I don't know, and I've never put a lot of thought into it because I've never wanted to, and therefore never wondered if I could, not have a cpc connected.
Same here - I've always taken the CPC to a shower for granted without stopping to ask myself why it was necessary - since, when one starts thinking about it, it is less than obvious. In fact, for exactly the same reasons, when one starts to think about it, it is actually 'less than obvious' (even though it 'feels obvious') why RCD protection of a shower is desirable.
I guess because it is the concern of raising the water to a potential WRT earth. They do make metal hand-held shower heads, and it's not exactly unlikely that a very wet person could be grasping that and have their foot on a metal waste.
Yes, as I said, that was about the only 'reason' I could think of. As you will have seen, I wrote:
...About the only possible 'purpose' I can think of would be if people are concerned about the possibility of electricity being conducted through the water emanating from the shower in the event of a fault been L and metal parts (e.g. heating 'coil') which are in contact with the water, but that might be stretching things a bit.
... and, despite intuition, the same is about the only reason I can think of for RCD protection being 'necessary'.

Kind Regards, John
 
I just thought John thought it was from this thread.
No, I knew it wasn't from this thread, but I didn't bother to going looking at where it came from, given that, as a general statement, it was clearly true.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what 'touch voltage' means in the absence of any exposed conductive parts - but I suppose that we may now have extended the definition of 'conductive part' to include a water-filled hose, so maybe a shower does have exposed-c-ps!!

Kind Regards, John
 
Earthing operates the CPD to limit touch voltage duration.
What is the meaning of 'touch voltage' when there are no exposed conductive parts?
I do not know when I wrote that. It is not from this thread.

Just for future ref, if you click on the upwards pointing arrow at the end of the blue wording it takes you to the original post, its at the end where it says " EFLImpudence said: ↑ "
 
Just for future ref, if you click on the upwards pointing arrow at the end of the blue wording it takes you to the original post, its at the end where it says " EFLImpudence said: ↑ "
Yes, I know that. With the 'old forum' one simply had to click on the blue wording to do the same thing (there wasn't an arrow). However, as I said, I didn't bother, since I wasn't interested in knowing when he wrote it, since it was obviously a statement of general truth.

Kind Regards, John
 
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what 'touch voltage' means in the absence of any exposed conductive parts - but I suppose that we may now have extended the definition of 'conductive part' to include a water-filled hose, so maybe a shower does have exposed-c-ps!!
If you want to assume a metal hand-held spray head, and then read what it says on BYB p28...
 
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what 'touch voltage' means in the absence of any exposed conductive parts - but I suppose that we may now have extended the definition of 'conductive part' to include a water-filled hose, so maybe a shower does have exposed-c-ps!!
If you want to assume a metal hand-held spray head, and then read what it says on BYB p28...
Well, even though a metal hand-held spray head is clearly conductive and can be touched, the question still arises as to whether it can "become live under fault conditions". If, as is usually the case, the hose is electrically insulated from the shower unit, we are again, I suppose, probably back to postulating conduction through the water in it, are we?

Kind Regards, John
 
We are.

I once had a shower suffer a failed heater can which tripped the RCD. Maybe the fault path was through the water, or maybe the element detached itself and touched the earthed can. Maybe with no earth connection it would have carried on running. Maybe I'd not like to try and find out.
 
More generally when talking about a touch voltage or touch current(under either normal condition or "single fault" condition) you really need to define what impedance the "body" is assumed to have. At the one extreme a class 2 power supply could have an open circuit voltage relatively to earth (as measured with a high impedance DMM) of anywhere beween 0 and the mains voltage but it's safe to touch because the source impedance is so high and (asusming the manufacturer has followed the class 2 requirements correctly) the chance of a fault lowering that source impedance to a level where it becomes dangerous is very low. At the other extreme a solidly earthed peice of metal carrying a high current to earth could have a short circuit current to earth of amps (or more) but provided the connection to earth is solidly made it's safe to touch because the voltage is not high enough not to drive any signficant current through the human body

The medical standards i've been working with recently use an impedance of approx 1K to represent the human body, I don't know if the commerical standards are the same or not.

Clean water in a pipe has a fairly high resistance BUT
1: dirty water can have a much lower resistance. With an unknown heater design I would not want to bet on the water staying clean in the event of heater failure
2: shower hoses often have a significant amount of metal in their construction. Depending on how well that metal is isolated from the water this could considerably reduce the amount of water the current travelled through.
3: shower hoses are generally removable without tools. AIUI the general principle is if something can be removed without tools then the safety of the appliance should be considered in the situation where it is missing.

Put all those things together and I would not want to rely on the resistance of the water between the point of heating and the point where it can be touched as protection against electric shock in the event of heater failure.
 
Put all those things together and I would not want to rely on the resistance of the water between the point of heating and the point where it can be touched as protection against electric shock in the event of heater failure.
Indeed. As we've been discussing, it seems that no-one can think of any other reason/explanation. If it were not for the possibility of conduction through the water, I don't think there would be any particularly logical reason/need for a shower to be earthed.

Kind Regards, John
 

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