Sign off problem

[gemshan1]

Hi, I’ve recently had an extension built but parted company with the builder before it was finished, the first fix electrical work has been done but I need the second fix completed before I can get it signed off, I’m getting ridiculous prices from electricians to do this!! Am I right in thinking that someone with some electrical knowledge could do this and then I pay the going rate for an electrical inspection certificate from a qualified electrician, would this certificate be the 7671 required by BC. Thanks

 

[EFLImpudence]

Are the electrics not included in the building work?

 

[flameport]

an electrical inspection certificate from a qualified electrician, would this certificate be the 7671 required by BC.

That depends on whether BC will accept an EICR for a new installation or not.
Ask them what document(s) they expect to receive.

 

[gemshan1]

That depends on whether BC will accept an EICR for a new installation or not.
Ask them what document(s) they expect to receive.

They want the 7671 certificate, by what your saying can I assume an EICR is not a 7671 ?

 

[LeeJC]

Hi,
7671 is the reference for the British Standard referring to wiring regs.
The forms templates that IET provided to sit alongside work carried out in accordance with the wiring regs are:

Electrical Installation Certificate
Electrical Installation Certificate Minor Works
Electrical Installation Condition Report

An EICR wouldn't normally cover 'New' circuits but as stated it depends what your Buildings Control people want.
Also it's either advised against or mandatory that an Electrician doesn't sign off work they (or their employees) haven't carried out.

 

[ericmark]

I had the same problem, a builder ran off, and he had employed an electrician and I did not even know the electricians name.

I had assumed the builder had done everything above board before running off, and so my first step was to go to the shire hall and explain I was going to take over the job, however it transpired the builder had not informed building control about the work to be done, and I was told in no uncertain terms it is the owners responsibility to ensure the LABC is told, the builder may do it for him, but still the owners responsibility.

Rest of work no real problems, it was just the electrics where the stumbling block was apparent. The LABC inspector was quite open, he did not have the skill to inspect the electrics, so at my expense he wanted to employ some one to inspect it. I did not want this, as was going to cost, and in the end he agreed to accept my signature, I do have C&G 2391 which says I have the skill.

However what he wanted to do was employ an electrician who would use the EICR forms, he would be told to treat it as a new installation, but as already said he can't write out an installation certificate for work he is not in control of, but the EICR is very similar to the installation certificate, except he is not signing to say he designed or installed the installation, he is only signing to say he has inspected and tested.

However the EICR can be completed with only a sample inspected, also it only looks for dangerous and potentially dangerous (C1 and C2) items, it does not point out all items not complying with BS 7671 valid at the time of the design. So the LABC have to engage the inspector with instructions that he must treat it as a new build, and he is not really doing a standard EICR, all he is doing it using the EICR forms, he is being far stricter with his testing.

So there is no point in you commissioning an EICR this needs to be commissioned by the LABC, you just pay for it.

In my case, when the LABC inspector visited the test equipment was laid out for him to see, complete with calibration certificates, and my as it was at that time C&G 2382 and C&G 2391, so he knew I had the skill, and clearly I could have written out either an installation certificate or an electrical installation condition report, but the question he had was can he trust me? So he originally wanted it inspected by some one he knew he could trust.

I had to convince him, I would not put my parents in danger, and would do a good job.

As a post script, when my parents died, and we came to sell the house, I initially could not find the paperwork, so I applied to the LABC for replacements, to be told it would take 4 months, and I would need to pay for the time it takes the council worker to find them, no fixed fee, in other words go away, it's just a tax, no one really wants to store these documents for you.

The solicitor said no problem, we just take out insurance, but then I found them.

He showed us the installation certificate for this house, and the readings did seem suspect, but I was not really worried, and after moving in I found they only covered about 1/3 of the house, lower floor only of a three story house.

Since I did not need a mortgage I don't know what lenders would say about lack of paperwork, I would have said a year or so ago no point in the seller getting an EICR done, however in a Pembroke EICR court case, the trading standards took an electrician to court for not reporting the defects to the seller in an EICR, when the buyer complained.

I tried to find the link, but only found how a Landlord was fined £1,600 for not providing an EICR, and banned from renting property, with such a low fine, he is likely not worried, and since he can't rent property it means the tenants have needed to find a new home, yes the home will be now brought up to scratch, but does not help the tenants much.

 

[JohnW2]

An EICR wouldn't normally cover 'New' circuits but as stated it depends what your Buildings Control people want.

True but if the person who undertook the work can't/won't (or is not available to) provide an EIC or Minor Works cert, then, no matter what BC "want", and EICR would be all that they could be offered - since, as you go on to say ...

Also it's either advised against or mandatory that an Electrician doesn't sign off work they (or their employees) haven't carried out.

... since someone who has not undertaken the work cannot (without lying) complete the declaration on an EIC or Minor Works cert.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

EICR would be all that they could be offered

That is true, but @gemshan1 could write it, all it says is the person writing the report must be a person competent to undertake the inspection and testing required under regulation 3(1) and any further investigative or remedial work in accordance with the electrical safety standards.

There is no set qualification to be able to write an EICR, so the LABC needs to select some one they trust, or of course do it them selves.

In theory the electrician doing the work should have been a scheme member, if anywhere be it sign writing on the van, or web site, or any paper work the electrician indicates he is a scheme member, then the ensuring the paperwork is completed or LABC notified swaps from the owner to the electrician.

However in my case, I did not know who the electrician was, and I was unaware that to turn a pantry and an outside toilet into a wet room needed planning permission, today it seems even need it to change a window, it has gone daft.

However as yet is seems the work has not been done

I need the second fix completed before I can get it signed off

so either a scheme member electrician or done through the LABC, and when I tried to do that, it was not easy, I know you can get installation certificates with three signatures, so another electrician could sign for just the installation and inspection and testing without signing for the design, but then it would need the old electrician to sign for design.

What we need to consider is, if we were asked to complete the work, what would we do? And I think I would either walk away, or quote some silly high figure. I could not walk away, it was my dad's house, I simply had to finish it myself, with my son's help, but as a non scheme member, knowing some one is going to be scrutinising my work, I would not want to take it on.

Would you?

 

[JohnW2]

That is true, but @gemshan1 could write it, all it says is the person writing the report must be a person competent to undertake the inspection and testing required under regulation 3(1) and any further investigative or remedial work in accordance with the electrical safety standards.

Essentially true - but, as I said, if (for whatever reason) it is not possible to get a certificate from the person who did the work then, whether they like it or not', the LA will either get an EICR or nothing However, I imagine that they could require that the EICR had been provided by someone who they regarded as 'competent' to provide it.

Your reference to "regulation 3(1)" suggests that you are thinking of the "landlord legislation", but I don't think we have any reason to believe that we are talking about a rental property, do we?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Yes took the quote from the landlord regs, it was just handy to get a quote from.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes took the quote from the landlord regs, it was just handy to get a quote from.

As I said, that's what I presumed - but what that legislation (which doesn't actually mention "EICRs") says about who can do the inspections required by that legislation has got nothing to do with EICRs in general.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I note you can buy a sheet of forms with scheme providers logo on them, but small print says for people not covered to do EICR under their scheme membership, however when they are a free down load from the IET, clearly only reason to pay for a pad is to try to make the client think it is being done under the scheme.

Yes the landlord inspection does not cover the DNO equipment, and it does cover more than the installation, any item not normally moved is covered, and this does leave the question as to what to do with boilers, they are clearly fixed, but would normally be considered as current using equipment and would be PAT tested (inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment) and would be gone by who ever services the boiler. So yes for rental premises one needs multi certificates, and both an EICR and a PAT test, plus other tests like smoke alarms, which are not part of the EICR.

The thing is anything not in service is not tested, I had smoke alarms in my mothers house connected to a call centre who would auto call out the fire brigade, so when the house was rewired I did not fit smoke alarms, as already fitted. On my mothers death the local authority came around and removed all the smoke alarms, I was rather surprised, I would have thought they could not remove until others fitted, but no, they just ripped them out.

 

[martygturner]

Having bought and turned around a lot distressed half finished building projects, I have never ever had a problem with Building control and electrics...insulation , cavity wall ties and enclosed beams that have not been inspected yes...electrics no. All have been happy with a Condition report. They all know you cannot magic the original electrician back, sometimes after a fair few years have passed...we had one where the original owner was an electrician did most of the work himself then died....

Why do people spend such a long time arguing over it, too many copies of the regs downloaded and poured over by those who never have done anything in the real world.

 

[JohnW2]

Having bought and turned around a lot distressed half finished building projects, I have never ever had a problem with Building control and electrics...insulation , cavity wall ties and enclosed beams that have not been inspected yes...electrics no. All have been happy with a Condition report. They all know you cannot magic the original electrician back, sometimes after a fair few years have passed...we had one where the original owner was an electrician did most of the work himself then died....

As I often mention, I have a family member involved in a similar business, usually buying, refurbishing and selling several properties every year and, like you, she has very rarely had any significant problems about the electrics. However ....

Why do people spend such a long time arguing over it, too many copies of the regs downloaded and poured over by those who never have done anything in the real world.

I think what fuels these discussions./arguments is the fact that BCOs are essentially "laws unto themselves" and, as we quite often hear about individual cases, if one is unlucky enough to be dealing with an authoritarian Jobsworth sort-of BCO, it can be a difficult and tedious battle.

Kind Regards, John

 

[martygturner]

As I often mention, I have a family member involved in a similar business, usually buying, refurbishing and selling several properties every year and, like you, she has very rarely had any significant problems about the electrics. However ....

I think what fuels these discussions./arguments is the fact that BCOs are essentially "laws unto themselves" and, as we quite often hear about individual cases, if one is unlucky enough to be dealing with an authoritarian Jobsworth sort-of BCO, it can be a difficult and tedious battle.

Kind Regards, John

I suppose but again its so vastly unlikely and I suspect just an urban myth...BCO's are not a law unto themselves, you have the right of appeal and having had it with foundations and drains its not at all tedious or fraught..I don't like the drain layout, why, too many branches ok I will get a se report ...righty ho thats all fine then. All a BCO wants is to have the bit they don't like confirmed by somebody who is willing to take the risk on. As electrics are always passed out the only issue comes down to the BCO approved list of providers if they have one.

You can always employ your own BCO... which we have done in 3 rural wales jobs as the council inspection was a 3 week wait.