Smart TRV Question

What you are asking could be done with Standard TRVs
i.e Lounge on 5, Bedroom on 3, Spare Room on 1
I already have this implemented, but I dont want to go around changing 15+ TRV several times a day based on who is in each room. To me this is the biggest selling point of smart heating control - it is much more precise and responsive to room use in real time.
 
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I should probably have said this was more of a POC question.
My house setup is not ideal from an efficiency standpoint:
  1. One section has underfloor heating. There is a single programmer (Myson MEP2C) and each room (5) has a thermostat.
  2. Upstairs is another zone. There is a single Myson MPRT in one of the bedrooms; this bedroom is not used.
  3. There are 2 other extended rooms which have radiators (3 per room). Because the manifold was full the heating for these rooms is wired into the upstairs circuit.
  4. There is a hot water tank, controlled by the programmer (point 1).
I am therefore thinking of introducing smart control in phases:
1. Start controlling the radiators in each room individually. I am currently sitting in 1 room but heating 6 others and this is what I am trying to avoid. Continue using the MPRT to schedule the overall heating for this zone and trigger the call for heat. From the responses on this thread I believe this can be achieved with zero changes to the heating.
2. Eliminate the MPRT by wiring zone 2 into the smart hub.
3. Eliminate the MEP2C by wiring zone 1 and h/w into the smart hub.

Do you have just one boiler?
 
Yes your plan will work- effectively what you'll have is a load of TRVs that you can program from your phone. What you will lose is some of the optimisation functionality (if the MPRT isn't calling for heat then the boiler won't fire up early to achieve set temp at the required time), similarly if you boost a room and MPRT isn't calling for heat you won't get any.
Plan B (replace MPRT with hub) will work.
The benefits of replacing the ufh controller with a smart toy are limited. There is a 3 channel Wiser hub (2 heat, 1 dhw) but Opentherm control is limited (if you're not planning on using opentherm to control the heat source then crack on). Ufh doesn't respond very quickly so giving it a quick boost won't really work.
 
Yes your plan will work- effectively what you'll have is a load of TRVs that you can program from your phone. What you will lose is some of the optimisation functionality (if the MPRT isn't calling for heat then the boiler won't fire up early to achieve set temp at the required time), similarly if you boost a room and MPRT isn't calling for heat you won't get any.
Plan B (replace MPRT with hub) will work.
The benefits of replacing the ufh controller with a smart toy are limited. There is a 3 channel Wiser hub (2 heat, 1 dhw) but Opentherm control is limited (if you're not planning on using opentherm to control the heat source then crack on). Ufh doesn't respond very quickly so giving it a quick boost won't really work.

Most smart systems have comfort modes, eco modes, weather comp, etc built in.

Tis a fairly basic prerequisite if the system being smart tbh.

Still think you are wrong on the wiser open therm.
 
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Most smart systems have comfort modes, eco modes, weather comp, etc built in.

Tis a fairly basic prerequisite if the system being smart tbh.

Still think you are wrong on the wiser open therm.
Whatever. CBA to do a 10 minute video demonstrating the effect. Yes I've got zone valves at the moment, will probably ditch them next year EXCEPT one that needs to stay to compensate for a poor bit of system design by me (flow from thermal store has enough vertical to create thermal circulation in a couple of rads, most undesirable when system running on woodburner alone).
 
Yes your plan will work- effectively what you'll have is a load of TRVs that you can program from your phone. What you will lose is some of the optimisation functionality (if the MPRT isn't calling for heat then the boiler won't fire up early to achieve set temp at the required time), similarly if you boost a room and MPRT isn't calling for heat you won't get any.
Plan B (replace MPRT with hub) will work.
The benefits of replacing the ufh controller with a smart toy are limited. There is a 3 channel Wiser hub (2 heat, 1 dhw) but Opentherm control is limited (if you're not planning on using opentherm to control the heat source then crack on). Ufh doesn't respond very quickly so giving it a quick boost won't really work.

I bought the wiser 3 channel hub for future proofing but don't think I will switch the h/w and uf heating across in the short-medium term because it services the most used rooms and has thermostats in every room already. To me the big benefit is the upstairs zone which is wasting tons of energy.

Don't think the boiler is opentherm compatible anway; it is an ideal classic. My only concern with it is maintaining maximum compatibility with whatever replaces it eventually and I assume most modern boilers are opentherm enabled?
 
Define "Smart" it seems some people think "Smart" means it connects to a mobile phone, others is has some algorithms (what ever they are) which record information and use it latter (learn).

So if the TRV is to control room temperature the boiler needs to run, this becomes more important if the TRV is programmable, but there are many ways to do this.
1) Wall thermostat drops 0.5°C before the change and back up 0.5°C on the change.
2) Use a modulating boiler so 90% of the time it is running.
3) Wifi link to some wall thermostat/hub.
4) Some other method.

In theory the modulating boiler does not need a wall thermostat to control it, the return water temperature can do most of the control, with one small problem, once the water stops circulating there is nothing to tell the boiler to turn back on, so best option is some form of anti cycle software, having written PLC programs it would be easy enough to write a program which extends the off time if return water get hot in under a set time, and decrease off time if not, but this relies on the installer fitting a TRV to every radiator and the by-pass valve being close to the boiler.

There is no way to insure the installation is as expected, a standard TRV has around 3°C between fully closed and fully open, so the room would be 3°C cooler in heart of winter to when central heating first turned on, and fan assisted radiators control output by fan speed not water flow, and boiler manufacturers want their boiler to work with all.

So we need some form of wall thermostat to turn off the boiler when not required, and turn it back on when required, this is not to set an area temperature, it is to decide when the boiler is required to run.

As said a mechanical TRV has around 3°C between fully on and fully off, so in theory a wall thermostat set some where between that 3°C window can be used to control the boiler, in practice over shoot can mess this up, so the lock shield needs careful setting, and having a few wall thermostats in parallel can improve how it works.

Nest in USA have these View attachment 256663 temperature sensors to ensure heating runs if any room is under temperature, I think, as the way they work seems a little uncertain, but here in UK where most of the heating uses water, not hot air, we tend to have combined the temperature sensor and TRV head together.

To my mind Nest and Energenie MiHome got it the wrong way around, with the wall thermostat telling the TRV what to do, most the TRV tells the wall thermostat what to do, and how also varies. Hive for example has a ceiling of 22°C under that the TRV can send a "demand for heat" and turn boiler on even when the wall thermostat is satisfied. Others use different methods, having a display showing 6 rooms seems good View attachment 256667 not a clue how well it works.

But also a couple of wall thermostats in parallel can ensure boiler runs when required and cheap (I paid £15 each eQ-3) programmable TRV heads View attachment 256668 can work very well, although will only connect to one phone and only when local as uses bluetooth not wifi. The blue tooth does mean where more than one radiator in a room they can be linked. But other than that likely the manual local controls are good enough, there is also the Terrier i30.

The idea of geofencing seems good, however I found speed is a problem, I can set the eQ-3 TRV heads to come on in sequence heating most important rooms first, and also with the Energenie cheat setting heat to 22°C for an hour then back down to 20°C, but the geofencing I have has no user controls to set at what point it turns heating up. Not a clue if when within 25 miles, 1 mile, or 500 yards, until google took over Nest it did work, but now has failed.

Although when working in Algeria or the Falklands clearly enough time for it to warm my house in North Wales, but the Energenie MiHome TRV heads unless I cheated took 3 hours to reach target temperature, few people work far enough away from home for geofencing to work correctly, specially when no way to adjust the settings.

Picking up the phone and turning it on is really not that "Smart" I do just that with a stand alone AC on a "Smart" socket, I look at the temperature reported by the TRV and if too high turn on the AC when I have finished shopping, mainly because the AC is under size for the room, and it takes so long to cool it.

But central heating control is now all by time, I do have 9 programmable TRV heads, but also a wife who does not seem to understand the concept of closing internal doors, however when she does yes rooms do heat to temperatures set.

But back to the question what is "Smart" does it need to work out the time taken to heat a room and adjust settings to take that into account as it is claimed the Drayton Wiser TRV head does? Or is a simple timed change in set temperature enough to call it smart?
 
Why have you quoted me? Normally a quote includes some comment.

One big question I can't answer is why I want it cooler at night, and wife is the same, once we retire we want the room temperature to drop.

It does not drop that much even with heating off, and even switching off heating completely to one room does not cause a massive difference, in fact mothers old house with a bay window could record a larger difference in the living room than this house shows room to room.

Clearly there is a transfer of heat room to room, but more likely mothers house with a gas fire replacing the original coal was causing drafts within the room, and I think this is a big thing with heating systems, not how the rooms heat, but how the rooms cool.

Although this house does not get morning sun until around 9 am, as in a valley.

But home design must alter how it cools and heats, our North rooms cool and heat slower as buried in the hill side, South side rooms heating is a bit changeable depending on the sun. And leave a door open living room to hall and living room becomes a lot cooler, but this is because the heat from living room switches off the wall thermostat.

You need to look at your house and work out what it improve your house not every one else's house. I have identified the problem with my house, the hall cools too slow. I know the Nest temperature sensors will cure my problem, and have decided to wait and see if released in the UK. I have decided swapping the wall thermostat will not improve the heating enough to be worth while.

But each house is different, so what will cure my heating problem may not help you.
 
Thank you 'ericmark' for bringing an actual explanation & logic & avoiding 'one liners' of inaccurate miss-leading information as this issue deserves more. I am an engineer & know the importance of KISS (keep it simple stupid) plus there is no one correct answer. It all depends where you are starting from & what you want.
Thus, in my case I am starting from a good 5yr old Bosch-Worcester in a yr 2000 built house with 11 radiators all fitted with manual mechanical TRV, no room stat & one heat bleed radiator. We rely on the boiler being controlled by the return temperature & a basic timer for heating on & off only. We actually only use the timer for hot water & just prefer to manually turn the heating on when it gets cold & off when it gets too hot. We actually prefer to get off our backsides to do it manually (because we live too static a life as it is)
You can see I really don't want or need all that fancy control & already running it fairly efficiently so any energy saving will be modest so don't want to spend a fortune.
All I really want is:
1) ability to turn on/off unused rooms & not heat the whole house from our phones
2) easily reset a room temperature and get better hysteresis than the 3 degC as mentioned above (which is as good as a 'chocolate tea pot')
3) connected to above is that some of my manual TRV's are not easy to get at, therefore remote control is needed.
4) check I have turned down a stat & not forgotten a room.
5) set individual room timers - ie to get short burst of heat to prevent damp build up or have just the main bedroom on early in the morning & only the lounge & kitchen on in the evenings (I will point out here that I have never heated the house through the night & never want too)

I quite simply don't want the expense of additional smart thermostats that control the boiler, or any of the sales gizmo's & functions. {seriously, do you really have to have it always notice you have left the house!} I also want to avoid over complexity & that old phone issue of 'oh dear, the systems out of date, you can't update to the latest software, please buy new hardware' which in my opinion, being in electronics can occur after maybe only 5 yrs & negating all the cost savings to buy new kit.
What I want is to control each radiator just like my smart bulbs just from a phone by wi-fi (definitely not Bluetooth), turn them on & off, set the temperature, have programable timing schedules with possibly different temperatures, allow grouping of rads and if possible not require even a wi-fi hub. (you do all of this with smart bulbs so why not TRV's)
I don't care if its not perfect & if the boiler is not turned on then there is no heating - so what- I don't care.
I just want the simplest, lowest cost upgrade better than my dumb current system & to just buy a job lot of maybe 10 wi-fi TRV's for say £30 ea if possible, not needing even a hub (just like my smart bulbs) Every one tries to sell me more than I want or need but will not tell me some basic information.
Please, is there a wi-fi TRV to fit the bill?
I had seen the 'Drayton Wiser Smart Heating Radiator Thermostat' but they insist on a hub & possibly linked to a smart stat etc (I don't mind that it does not have a temperature reading display) - it is also too expensive being capable of more than i require
Thank you for reading
 
The wiser system is what you are describing.

Automation is a bugger. It needs to be very complex and complicated to work properly but needs to be simple and intuitive to control.

I think the wiser system manages that balance very well.

After having mine for a while now, I don't really notice it. I have constant hit water, my rooms are generally at a reasonable temperature at reasonable times of the day. The true test is my family. They don't notice either...

Boosting a rad has become natural.

It has a few niggles but honestly, it's been the best addition to my house in years.

I would struggle to think of how i could make it better in any meaningful way.
 
The wiser system is what you are describing.

Automation is a bugger. It needs to be very complex and complicated to work properly but needs to be simple and intuitive to control.

I think the wiser system manages that balance very well.

After having mine for a while now, I don't really notice it. I have constant hit water, my rooms are generally at a reasonable temperature at reasonable times of the day. The true test is my family. They don't notice either...

Boosting a rad has become natural.

It has a few niggles but honestly, it's been the best addition to my house in years.

I would struggle to think of how i could make it better in any meaningful way.

Likewise, after a few weeks with the wiser system I am very impressed. The app has an infuriating feature of logging you out and not supporting copy/paste or password managers but other than that it seems to work really well.

It can also be connected into home assistant which opens the door for almost unlimited automation.
 

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