I disagree - it's very common to have a neutral at the switch, and no neutral at the rose.
Me too !
Smoke alarm wiring question
- Thread starter bmoon
- Start date
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I disagree - it's not very common.
Maybe it's for reasons of maintenance to the other circuit requiring it to be isolated. If the detectors are on a lighting circuit you might not realise you've not any detection if you turn off the lighting circuit, whereas you would if you turned off the one labelled "Smoke Alarms"?
I disagree - it's very common to have a neutral at the switch, and no neutral at the rose.
Me too !
Is it F!
Most upstairs lighting circuits will be loop in and loop out. I reckon at least 90% of them.
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OK, we can argue about scale, but I'd suggest (by your own numbers) anything up to 10% of installations doesn't count as "rare".
The original statement was "A switch is unlikely to have a neutral". It may be uncommon, but hardly all that unlikely. The OP would need to find out how his system was wired and go from there - he can't assume that there WILL be a neutral at the rose.
For stats, my personal experience tally of (domestic) properties I've done wiring in is :
1 looped at rose
1 looped at switch
2 mixed
So 1 and two bits out of 4 for looped at switch.
YMMV
Job done!
Thanks so much everyone! It was a pretty straight forward job with all your advice and instructions.
The double pole switch in the cupboard:
View media item 62280
Upstairs alarm:
View media item 62281
Downstairs alarm:
View media item 62282
So glad to see the little green lights.
Thanks so much everyone! It was a pretty straight forward job with all your advice and instructions.
The double pole switch in the cupboard:
View media item 62280
Upstairs alarm:
View media item 62281
Downstairs alarm:
View media item 62282
So glad to see the little green lights.
I'd suggest that it also does not count as "very common".
OK, quite common then. It's certainly not so rare that an electrician is likely to say "Ooh, looped at the switches, that's unusual". And in the original context I made the comment, it's certainly common enough to say that "A switch is unlikely to have a neutral." perhaps isn't accurate information to give to someone who may not have the knowledge to tell that it isn't the case for his installation.
Upstairs lighting in a typical house?
Umm...
Umm...
Would that be any different to ground floor lighting in a typical bungalow ? Like my mate's bungalow that's looped at the switches ?
Tell you what, how about we just leave it at "there's <some unknown proportion> of properties with neutrals at the light switches and no permanent live at the roses - so the user/electrician needs to check first before making assumptions" ?
I was under the impression that it was more common than you guys seem to consider it - I'll bow to your (much) greater experience in the matter. When some accessory vendors are even making light switches with a neutral terminal I have to assume that they are responding to demand from the industry before they add extra cost. The main reason I've read is to move as much of the termination work to "can be done standing on the floor" height - so the type of property, or which floor it's on, probably doesn't make much difference.
Tell you what, how about we just leave it at "there's <some unknown proportion> of properties with neutrals at the light switches and no permanent live at the roses - so the user/electrician needs to check first before making assumptions" ?
I was under the impression that it was more common than you guys seem to consider it - I'll bow to your (much) greater experience in the matter. When some accessory vendors are even making light switches with a neutral terminal I have to assume that they are responding to demand from the industry before they add extra cost. The main reason I've read is to move as much of the termination work to "can be done standing on the floor" height - so the type of property, or which floor it's on, probably doesn't make much difference.
Neutrals at switched is very common in new builds and rewires, but even then, simple bedrooms are easier and quicker as loop in.
The majority of homes will have loop in/out in the bedrooms. Going back just a few years, and loop in/out was common throughout a house. Indeed, many older sparks still believe you are not permitted to take neutrals to the switch.
Going back to the 60s, Jbs under the floor and in the loft was common, meaning no neutral at the switch and no perm live at the light. Some sparks will bodge emergency lighting onto these systems by taking one cable from the switch and one from the light. Usually two pieces of bodgy trunking supplying one em light.
Maybe we should get members to open the rose in their master bedroom and post results. We could do a poll. Lol.
The majority of homes will have loop in/out in the bedrooms. Going back just a few years, and loop in/out was common throughout a house. Indeed, many older sparks still believe you are not permitted to take neutrals to the switch.
Going back to the 60s, Jbs under the floor and in the loft was common, meaning no neutral at the switch and no perm live at the light. Some sparks will bodge emergency lighting onto these systems by taking one cable from the switch and one from the light. Usually two pieces of bodgy trunking supplying one em light.
Maybe we should get members to open the rose in their master bedroom and post results. We could do a poll. Lol.
I rather suspect that he meant 'no permanent live at the rose'
Kind Regards, John
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