Stock market dealing

From Mark Douglas Trading in the Zone: "our minds cause us to perceive what we know, and what we know is part of our past, whereas, in the market, every moment is new and unique". So if every moment is new and unique, how do you "backtest"?

You do talk some nonsense. Groupon is a US company, listed on NASDAQ.

With all your 30% daily profits, you must be a billionaire by now. Well done.
 
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Oh ok, I did look Groupon up, and only found UK.

Backtesting is done successfully, very widely.
He's wrong about perceiving what we know.
Obviously he's not a scientist of any sort.
Trading s about recognising patterns, using a couple of dozen or so bits of information, and assessing probablilities, while allowing for mistakes or variability..


You are always finding something to quote which you choose to misapply to whatever you can think of like a child so you can make some stupid claim that someone else is wrong. It gets you nowhere but presumably fulfils some need you feel - ask a shrink. I suggested reading the book "Games people play" by Eric Berne.
.
"With all your 30% daily profits, you must be a billionaire by now.". Another stupid statement. You know I work with a pot that doesn't allow that.
Again you have some set of mental maladaptions to your lack of success which make you come up with crap like that, despite you knowing it's not true and makes you look silly. What word would you use to decribe someone like that? You go out of your way to make yourself look a .......?
No I don't write nonsense, .I make mistakes sometimes, sure.

I started - as I think I said, to get enough to secure my future. I've done that, so it's a pastime now. 10^5 was surprisngly quick. 6 wasn't very long, but the rate of growth was already limited by not letting the stake grow geometrically. 9 would have a lot of hurdles. I CBA to use it if I had it.
It never ceases to amaze my how people are incredulous so they have to make pathetic remarks.
Say you start with a grand.
Watch a few things which move. Small cap stocks in the premarket.
The meme stock Gamestop if you like. Often something crypto related, or the latest nuclear/ quantum fad.
If you're watching it and it's going up, so you join the trend. It'll often go from 30 to 31 or something in a day. That's 3%.
That's not all that difficult to find, not every day but say just twice a week. You're using CFD or SB so you're leveraged 5:1.

What does that get to in a year? I'll let you work it out. @kingandy2nd you got that, right?

It's not too difficult to find 3%.

Dunno why but a word in my head is "Jerk"...... so I looked at Trump's stock, today
1734586783111.png

Are you seriously telling me someone "mildly intelligent", way short of someone doing a Physics MSc, couldn't buy when there''s a couple of greens, sell when there's a couple of reds, and get 3%, in just this last evening? The total move is 20+%.
If you got all that twice a week, your grand would become enough to pay for that shrink.
 
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A dip. Multiple stop-outs.
Buying some dips today but not much. The buyin can wait until the risin..
That means it'll dip further.
I'll use some of the stuff only on 10% pa atm.

Some fund type things don't have stops, so we'll see what happens.
Away now so phone ops only :(
 
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The DIP seems to have mostly refilled.
I wasn't quick enough to make use of it, being away. It's annoying, I just need bot...

Thereare always stocks people are apparently playing with, where the price is jumping about butthe company doesn't actually make any money. The quantum computing and small nuclear reactor ones are doing that. Presumably people are betting on some future development.
There are many chances to make money with them, but don't turn your back...!


I may be misreading things, but Trumpf is making more sensible noises that feared so nobody's panicking at the mo.
I'm long Mag 7.
There is headroom and we have some levels established. Needs watching + stops set though.
1735034586522.png




I assume it's a decent time to buy back in to bitcoin/MSTR.
 
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#investing . Beginner level.
This has been working, though I haven't relied heavily on it. The "strategy" was mentioned way back.
The S&P 500 is the collection of the 500 biggest US companies, so it selects for the better ones. So generally it goes up over time, over 10% pa for the last decades..
The total value goes up and down. The "tech" sector does better most years though it's more volatile (more uppy and downy), with quite large swells and falls though a year.

This is using an Exchange Traded Fund which gives a multiple of the changes of the S&P500. There are loads of them with small differences. ANy would do.

This is a char of the last year, it's calles "5SPY". The candles are one day wide so the height gives the range which occurs within each day. If you buy or sel, you'll have aprice somewhere in that range. On a given day, the chars are available to small time periods.

1735388616420.png



OK so it has gone up over 100% in a year. What that means is you would have over doubled your money. But if you'd bought say in Mid July at "80%" your dosh would have dropped to about "30%" when Auguest started. Than means from £180 to £130.
WHat you need to do then, is buy near the bottoms and sell near the tops, unless you want to just stay invested which means not selling. YOu'd still wantto avoid buying at the top thouigh.

You see a bunch of wavy lines which are Moving Averages. As you can see, you can use previous behaviours to indicate when you're likely to be near a bottom. If you'd waited for that bottom red line intersection in August you'd be all good, but out of the market most of the time. The finer blue line atthe top guides to some extent when to sell - when the trace drops from the blue line. There are loads of "Indicators" like that, it's easy to find a couple you like.
So if you use the MA's to help pick a bottom, buy as the price is rising up from it, and you'd get a rise of 20 or 40% in the next few days. Picking the tops is an art, but generally you can see if you look, thatthe daily rise goes flat for a day or so, and if you missed by a day it wouldn't matter too much. There's nowhere in the year that the price dropped abruptly without going flat or down, first. Same when it dropped - there's generally a short flat period at the botttom.

While you'd be a smarty if you picked all the lows and highs, you'd be doing well if you only avoided the worst of the dips, and bought lower than you sold at. Don't forget that while you're waiting, you can put your money somewhere else.

The latest flat-top was 140%. If you'd skipped some of those 20% drops, say 5, you'd be at 240, which is £100 to £340.
 
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Yesterday's standard behaviour was one which happens very frequently. Textbook stuff so I took some screenshots. Things drop or rise rapidly for not much reason, very often "off the open". Then they spend the rest of the day coming back. If you join the off-open slope, you don't know where it'll end, so it's risky. If there's a catalyst ie some exogenous push, then you can safely assume it'll last a while . 9 times out of 10 you can benefit from that, just maybe losing a little of your gain when the trend comes to an end. On the 10th out of 10, you lose before it goes your way enough..

In the last days not much is going on, so these moves on Apple were minor examples of that. The US market opens at 14:30 so that's "the open".

1735644981015.png


We saw the rapid no-reason drops, and it came back again. The Yellow moves were the comebacks. Even though they didn't go all the way back, they were slow enough (each vertical line (candle) is 10 minutes wide) that one could close when the pullback stopped. One can use a "trailing stop" to close when the price drops a little.

The whole stock market did it yesterday, as represented by an index. Here I used Nasdaq futures, a "standard" index.
It's a useful one because one can with normal leverage, get a decent % move in the value of your trade.
I screenshotted these , the second about the time I posted the previous post.

The index I chose is called USA Tech 100 - it's the tech (Nasdaq) index. Yellow indicates where the next chart comes from.

1735645770706.png

To the left of the blue line, I did go "short" (betting the market will fall) for 3 of the red legs, but was waiting for the pullback, where the blue line was broken. You draw your blue line to join the "falling highs". It should be to the left a bit.
So I went long where the trace rose through the blue line. You know it's going to pull back (ie go down again) sometime. That really extended "wick" at about 15:50 is the clue so I closed there and waited for the next "bottom". Same sort of thing going up. Those are 1 minute candles. You have to stay awake but it's not critical to the odd candle. You can go short on the downward pullbacks once you 're reasonably good at see it coming.

That rise overall then was from about $21300 to $21560 (It's an 'expensive' stock.). So every one share you hold would gain you 260 bucks.
You don't need $20k per share, because you're " leveraged", it's an Index not a normal stock so it's 20:1, therefore you need about $1k.

WHen the trace got back to pretty much where it started at the end of the previous day (no surprise, that's common) it started "ranging" . AGain that's everyday, it moves between some fixed levels for a while. You can trade it each way. I don't try to be cute about getting the perfect entry, some do. I prefer it to be obviously going my way.

This is one of those "legs" at the bottom of the yellow line in the earlier chart.. The trade opened at 21525 shown by the blue line about 18:08. I closed that leg where the Bid line is 21554.
You can tell in advance it would stop about there because that's the previous high, and look at the wicks on the candles - they slow the rising, and if you're 1 minute late it doesn't matter much.
1735647231132.png

Explaing the numbers on that - the trade is shown as starting at $21525.8729, closing at 21554.39. "Quantity" is number of shares which was 58. So that 9 minute trade yielded 58 times the difference, which is the £1305.16 (they convert to £) on the right.
The sum of the range trades was about £4.5k.
Margin is the other figure. That's the amount which is used. The actual number of shares bought by that is 20:1 so 20x £49.8k. The Margin amount is reused each time.. In fact you use a portion of it, but can use most of it. The approx 50k here is the amount you could lose if something which never happens, happened. You don't lose the 20x number.

Risk of 50k? Crazy? Not really . Zoom out a bit to the earlier chart.

The overall rise was $21300 to $21560, that's $260 on the face of it, but by skipping some of the drops it's nearer 300. Adding on some of those profitable drops from the going-down parts of the earlier move it comes to about $400. That's around £20k profit.
I wouldn't recommend trying to get the profits from the downtrend there until you practiced a bit because you have to be used to reading the candles on multiple timeframes to not get caught, but even the 260 x58 is around $15k.
That 50k margin only takes a few days like that to accumulate.
Today that same index is jumping around, usual way with refernce to levels, trends and the rest, The lmarket hasn'y opened yet and it has shifted about $100 . x 58.

If you learn this sort of stuff, you won't need to go out to work again. Some days it doesn't work, so learn to recognise that.
The best advice I can give is to step back and see what's happening.
If it's up and down every few minutes, wait. If there's no trend, don't trade.

WHen there's a trend, look at the levels, only enter on a pullback, never at the top of a rising trend or bottom of a falling one. Practise with fake money.
With real money set your loss tolerance and stick to it. If it's £1, close and you won't lose more than £1. You might miss some profits, but that's life.
If you know you have mental hangups and an ego in the way, you will lose. Ask Arbu.

clearer numbers:
swing 1.png
 
This is what you said. There are no bonds paying that, except maybe junk ones. There are funds investing in bonds that have done that well over the last year, but that is something different. I can't see those on IG. All I can see there are bond futures, for which the charts only go back about a month. They have all been coming down in the last two weeks. So let's suppose I take my money out of my savings account at 5% and put it into Man GLG Sterling Corporate Bond Fund Professional Acc C which is currently at 126.6. Never mind that I'm sure it would take me quite a bit of time to get it all set up and the funds transferred. Let's see how it is at the end of the year.
Now at 127. So it has proven to be about a 1%pa bond, not a "20% bond". Same story - "All you've got to do is this, it's easy". Doesn't work. "Try this, how can anyone not do this?" Doesn't work. All of your ideas sound simple, but they are not reproducible in practice. Often it's just a case that the setups don't ever materialise. Maybe kingandy can tell us how he's getting on.
 
Happy New Year @Justin Passing and @Arbu

Thanks for all the tips and guidance Justin, I find it all very interesting.

Unfortunately I paused my testing with fake money after the big losses on gold as my work got hectic then followed up with Xmas. Trading is something that you definitely need to put time into, especially on the CFD stuff. Going to have a bit more of a practice in January when things quieten down a bit.
 
@Arbu you're you've become a serial eejit.
I switched out of that fund (orange, 15% in the past year not 1%which you lied) a while ago, using the blue one atm (also cited earlier). Yes right now it's flatter - about 13%. There are other bonds which are steeper so I've split some into those as well. All you have to do is look at a screener.
1735737308406.png



""All you've got to do is this, it's easy". Doesn't work." Excrement.
It's not necessarily "easy" , you misquoted (yet again, stop lying), it requires a bit of intelligent thought - something you seem determined to turn away from to prove you're a successful loser. Well done you're succeeding in that, perhaps that's your "life script". See the Eric Berne book I mentioned.


"they are not reproducible in practice." Funny how I've reproduced the same result, from the same setup with crypto, time after time. There are many "setups" well described on Youtube vids. SMB Capital do some good ones - an hour or so. Are you going to say "I'm not spending an hour listening to some guru" - the sort of thing you've said before? That some guru is making 8 figures a year. You?


"Often it's just a case that the setups don't ever materialise." The same ones are recognizable, time after time. If you ever bothered to learn a set of patterns, See Here, you would see some just about every day. As is often said, the past doesn't repeat but it rhymes". The web is full of explanations like these:

Are you seriously saying you never saw a big drop off the open which made it back towards start of day day price by the end of day.?
That's the last one I described. Lets find another - ok first name I tried, NVDA, a couple of days ago.
1735738646381.png

Big rise off the open (14:30), then it pulls back. Couple of percent, x5 = 10% in a day. One of those things some like to put fibonacci numbers on.

@Arbu you now have the problem that a you lose face if you get something right - you make some money. So your urge to live out your life-script is stronger. You can only be "right" if you lose money. Get therapy if head-wobbling doesn't do it. Get a hold of your ego, and tell it to do one -it's working against you.
 
Happy New Year @Justin Passing and @Arbu

Thanks for all the tips and guidance Justin, I find it all very interesting.

Unfortunately I paused my testing with fake money after the big losses on gold as my work got hectic then followed up with Xmas. Trading is something that you definitely need to put time into, especially on the CFD stuff. Going to have a bit more of a practice in January when things quieten down a bit.

I said, I think, Gold (also Natural gas, oil) don't behave like normal stocks. You can't leave them. They get called Widowmaker stocks.
Gold will probably rise over the year for geo politic reasons, but nobody much day-trades it.

Learn how to find LEVELS. Compare with the Spread - and you can see it's not good enough, even if youget it right, you have to wait all day to "clear the spread."

Have a look at these See Here,
You won't remember them all. There are good cheat-sheets if you do a search. liket his
1735741287405.png

Avoid the "consolidation phases" (sideways trendless times) which are where the bots aren't pushing much up or down, unless you can "range trade" within them.
Always always go with the trend. The trend is your friend.
Only use large cap (large market capitalization) stocks like the mag 7 ones, or the spreads will be horrible, [Edit also use the inices - SP500, US30, Tech100, but check the leverage, it's higher. Some people only ever use the Tech-100]
If there's a "catalyst", that helps a lot, either up or down. Busy trading a stock narrows its spread which is where the smaller ones become useful.
Look in the Premarket, such as https://www.marketwatch.com/tools/screener/premarket.
Often there's a trend which carries on .
You won't often find one of the top 7 in there but quite often a quite-big one. If there is NEWS on something like Tesla or Apple sales in China, you should be able to find it. Yahoo finance is quite good too.
Be aware what's moving otherwise, recently - things like Palantir are hot right now, as are Nuclear or quantum-computing-related stocks.
Have alook at SMR or IONQ.
Familiarise yourself with a Stock Screener such as at TradingView or Finviz.
Filter out the small-cap stocks. You have to dig around the page to find out how to do that, You only want mid cap upwards. if there are no big ones. Even then, you will learn that for example META's spread tends to be quite wide.
Something like Lilly Pharmaceuticals (LLY) moves a lot but the spead is always rather wide.
The screeners should reveal a number of stocks which you'll find crop up a lot over a longer term:
Servicenow(NOW) , Shopify (SHOP), Marvell, Broadcom(AVGO), Arista Networks(ANET) maybe, Micron(MU), Intel(INTC), Palantir(PLTR)
DraftKings, Netflix

And of course, be aware what Bitcoin is doing. If it's moving, then some of MARA, COIN, HUT8, MSTR will likely be moving even faster.
This one gives you an hourly chart https://www.coinbase.com/en-gb/price/bitcoin.

If say a price is going up, NEVER buy at the top of the market. Wait for a "chance to get in", which means a pullback, It may only be relative to one candle, that's the very least you want but you can often be caught. If you can't identify a stable trend, leave it.

Here's a long term one which would be good for "swing" trading but you get exactly the same on a 1 minute chart:
1735743252987.png

DO draw the lines. Open a free TradingView account and it'll keep your charts for you. with the lines.
The Trend is UP, okay? (higher highs and higher lows) so you buy somewhere near the lower, bluish line. THose are the pullback entry points.
The Trend is your friend.
From that chart a day ago,
1735743696319.png

Neverevereverever buy at orange. It's on an uptrend, whoopee, but the hindsight giveaway is the previous high, so you'd suspect it's about to fall. If you bought at blue, given the narrow spread, you'd have got away with it, but why tempt fate? (That hesitation in the previous fall, where there are two tiny candles, is a clue that there's a LEVEL there, of some sort. It could have done something odd when rising through the same price.

Investopedia is very good, look at that. Also things like the IG info.
Free bedtime reading:
John J Murphy - Technical Analysis Of The Financial Markets.pdf
 
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I'll put this in cos I used it yesterday:
It's the tech 100 again.
I have LEVELS drawn in from previous days weeks months. So approaching this red one I expected a bounce which came at about 17:50:

1735746334396.png

Took it going down for a while.
Bngo - the bounce
Long top wicks at about 21320 signify a change of direction so went short, expecting it to bounce again at the red line. 320 to 213 is 107 bucks per share. Went long. I was surprised when it went down so soon - came out flat there. Took the reds just after to 21200. Then at 19:02 or so it relaunched and you can see it slowing before it tops. Went short. . ETC. There's about 9 lots of average 60 bucks in there, Therefore for every $1000 of margin used, I got $540 at 20:1..
Now Arbu, what's complicated about that? If you can't see it, or do it, give up before you lose any more money, sort yourself out and try in a simulator.
 
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@kingandy2nd
This is stuff you should be reading about - youtube university is full of this sort of thing:
Deciding what the trend is, can be a question which troubles beginners particularly.
It depends what timescale you're looking at. After all, if you look at decades the trend is always up.
The price, obviously, goes up and down, so to take advantage of a trend you have to be prepared to take the drops without deciding the loss is too much for you. That makes you bottle out for a loss. You don't wanna do that. You blame the market, or blame someone who's trying to help you, saying "but you said....."
You have to have a strong reason to stick in the trade, or more correctly a confluence of reasons, and hold through those dips, otherwise you won't be able to take advantage of the highs. Maybe the price would come up tomorrow - or only next week...

The solution is to zoom out. Look at higher time period charts. If you're focused on the 1 minute chart, you usually can't see what's going on, so you may not be able to tell when to enter a trade.
Here, live now - these are all the same US Tech 100 (futures) index.
This looks like a downtrend:
1735812749253.png

But the pale line there (a 50 period Moving Average) gives a clue that it's not.
Coming out, still on 1 min, the picture is different

That's looking like a Range, and it looks like there's a Level (actually several minor ones) there
1735812925726.png


so no trend. Within that period you could discern many smaller up and down trends. So what's going on and how can you use it?
You can use those small trends by looking at the range, but they "retract" a lot, which means things could change against you easily.. If you opened at a price somewhere in the middle, you'd have to wait until the price gave you a profit as it zigged and zagged. That's not much more than luck. Don't do that, the market always has infinite power to exhaust your patience.

Here the pattern is carrying on but the red line suggests there's a strong level in there. Prices reverse at Levels... or they break through with a jump
1735813223699.png

If you look wider, you can see that there's a range going on. If you bought here , you might expect the price to go up towards 21390, but it might go down before it does that. Do you have the patience?? This could be the top of a "dome" so you'd be waiting a long time.
1735813467186.png
.
Now zoom out to 10 minute candles and the situation is clearer:
1735813560349.png


The Level at the Red line is obvious and you should have put it in before you opened anything. I did that, looking for levels on the higher timeframe is automatic and should be , always, before you enter any trade any time.
You have the price coming up from the lowest point on the chart, fine if you were there (all night), but it's settling around that red line.
Should you expect a useful trend to work for you from now? Barely. You can use short trades and make a profit, but not with much conviction, because you would expect periods of 10 - 15 minutes with the price going against you. That's a lot of chance for something to occur and throw the pattern off.
What often happens, did happen here (1 minute again)
1735813858064.png

It has all got boring, with the price going sideways around the Level. That can go on for a long time.
It might drift up or down, but what you need is a Breakout. New Year so hopefully upwards.
Would I bet on it going up, not enthusiastically.
While I type, it has gone up to that 21390, which could have won a little, but where next - no idea. A range trade short from 21390 would have gone wrong up to now:
1735814773695.png

While I've been typing I've had net gains of a few dollars on that $213xx price. No real conviction so small "size". A few dollars x a handful of shares.
Activity like this is called "scalping". It works, usually, but it's pretty frustrating when the trends are so short with so many reversions.

We're in the Premarket here, so it's not surprising.
 
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Are you seriously saying you never saw a big drop off the open which made it back towards start of day day price by the end of day.?
That's the last one I described. Lets find another - ok first name I tried, NVDA, a couple of days ago.
1735738646381.png

Big rise off the open (14:30), then it pulls back. Couple of percent, x5 = 10% in a day. One of those things some like to put fibonacci numbers on.
So what? Of course it happens. Doesn't mean that you can predict it. Here's my trade on nvidia from 31st. It came down and didn't come back up. Some days it will reverse all the way. Some days it won't.
nvidia.JPG
 
You don't have to predict it.
You recognize it.
Simples.

I posted to illustrate a common pattern for people who can't make money most days.
You the forum struggler in thinking comes back with
"All of your ideas sound simple, but they are not reproducible in practice."
which is utter shyte.

That's so what.
Trillions of dollars are traded every day based on repeating patterns. You can't do it, ok. But don't try saying it can't be done.

That chart you posted shows one compound fast drop off the open followed by a double bounce. Less common than a single but common enough...The first bounce wouldn't yield much but the second is easy to see. Same doji candle, even. And it goes back to AVWAP as usual. (white on my chart below)


1735847407067.png

The rest of your chart doesn't have the same pattern at all.
If you can't see that after all the time you've been trying, stop trading.


Clear uptrend after the second arrow.
If you had some EMAs on there you'd see it's all following the 20 (yellow) on 5 min,
all candles tend to work better on longer timescale charts. The reversal wicks you're saying aren't there, do appear on those but not as clearly as on the first.
Your third arrows comment is invalid - does not indicate an upturn because the price is not rising at that point.
4th arrow is nothing - there's a bit of a level there, is all.

That's a textbook falling trend you could have traded 3-4 hours. Following the 10 green and 20 yellow EMA until it break up to the 50 (grey-blue) at EOD.
Absolutely standard stuff.
1735873395626.png

Altogether it's over 2%. You'd miss a bit at the turns and gain because it covers the same prices 2-3 times.
2% overall is 10% at x5 , so happy days. If you can be bothered to scalp inside each candle like the Tradertv guys you get an extra quarter or so.

That's very basic normal behaviour . I just checked, it follows fibonacci retracements/ Elliot wave stuff but most people just eyeball it.
I would have been able to trade that in my first, maybe second week of trading. Maybe not very accurately but enough to make a profit.
You have to learn it , it works.
 
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