Telephone cabling help please

[drgl]

One more point.

Re the fizz test.....

It is quite possible for there to be 50 VAC on a phone line. Also, if a call comes in when you are fizz testing, be prepared!

class!! I wouldn't recommend the fizz test!! 120VAC when the phone rings....

 

[Paul_C]

It is quite possible for there to be 50 VAC on a phone line. Also, if a call comes in when you are fizz testing, be prepared!

The idle line voltage is actually 50V DC, then you can have upwards of 100V AC superimposed on that when the line is ringing.

the idc terminals are fast

And cheap to make, which if course is the other main objective with all this stuff these days.

If you are going to work on IDC connections on phones, please buy the proper punchdown tool for the job, and make it a decent metal one. The cheap plastic insertion tools are just about usable for one or two jobs, but the end soon becomes worn. Using screwdrivers, penknives, etc. to push the wires into the IDC connections will damage the blades and result in bad connections, in the future if not right now.

The old equipment was far superior in my opinion. I never did like the modular connections either. The old 1/4-inch GPO jacks used in the past were far more rugged and reliable.

 

[zoltron]

fizz testing is not that bad, even when a call comes in. It just presents a tingling sensation in the finger. Peeps will be fine and long as they don't test on the tongue or the end of the male genitals (like a former workmate who thied this for a bet, when I used to work for Telewest many years ago).

BTW the ringing voltage on a modern switch/exchange is 75VAC, just checked this with a current telewest network engineer who I still know. Higher voltages were common on old exchanges as you used to have a spark gap which had to jumped and thus higher voltages were required to make the jump across the gap.

 

[majorj0nny]

According to my old mate who worked for GPO up to 70's, the colours most commonly used in the old code

Yes -- Blue, orange, green, and brown were the standard colors for quad station wire used by the GPO until the early 1980s. Blue and orange were the line pair, with green and brown used in various ways depending upon the configuration of the phones, whether it was a party-line etc.

Some of these old cables were then just reterminated when the new modular jacks were introduced around 1982. At the same time, the standard method of wiring bells was also changed. The hybrid wiring which results in such a modified installation can be confusing to anyone not familiar with the old configurations.

Melter, glad you're up and running now, but another point for anyone else experiencing difficulties is that you can find some sockets which have been numbered backwards, i.e. you need to swap over 2-5 and 3-4.

This was due to a monumental lack of communication when the standard was drawn up which resulted in the plugs and sockets being numbered the opposite way round , and it seems that some manufacturers use the original plug numbering on their sockets.

A typical sympton of such a misnumbered socket is that a phone plugged into it will give you dialtone but it will not ring on incopming calls.

hmmm very interesting ... ive been reading this thread with the aim of sorting out my own problem.

Basically I have currently got my master BT socket downstairs (behind a radiator ?) this has a wire coming out of it - around the room and into a plasterboard wall which originally had the 1 phone on it. Now Ive added 2 more upstairs phones from this master via an extention and also theres a BT Broadband modem upstairs on the same circuit - obviously Im using filters on all my phones as instructed with the broadband.

Ok - all this worked great - still does really - but I got nostalgic and really fancied one of them old phones. I was (still am) planning to get a bakerlite phone for downstairs (see www.old-phones.com), but I recently decorated my bedroom and decided upon some 70's retroness from my childhood and went for a 700series black dial pulse phone. Im told on that website that all phones are/can be converted to work on modern networks. I got my new (old) phone and plugged it in ... listened to to the dial-tone all nice - made a call - working great ... talked to my mum on it... then I rung my house (from my mobile) to listen to the fancy old proper bells - to my concern it didnt ring ?

after much messing I was ready to send this back as faulty but before I did I tried the phone at my mums house - it worked a treat there ? so basically something much be 'wrong' with my home telephone wiring? I noticed that the modern phones I own (which ring fine in their irritating electronic tone) only seem to have 3 wires going into them... while this old phone has 4 ? I also noticed that the solid blue wire that goes into the old phone and appears to power the bells did not seem to be 'getting juice' from my telephone wiring? Ive tried this phone on just the master with nothing else connected and still nothing... but thinking of that - this isnt really my master is it ? its an extention from the master - it uses 'old' coloured cables (blue, orange, brown, and green) but only Blue and Orange seem connected to the 4 pin terminal that I now call my master socket.

I have a brown and green cable just dangling. Ive tried putting these cables into the 2 empty sockets but still no ringing from that old phone... Ive done this is different combination.

Im thinking? does one of these unused wires need to double up in the socket with eithe the blue or ogange cable ? or should I change that extended master for something else ?

my next cause of action apart from praying some bright spark (or should that be sparky) reads this and instantly knows whats going on.. is to possibly start hunting round in my mums wiring to see what the difference is. hmmm

 

[Steve]

Are you aware of REN? You can only have 4 phones (or equivelant) on any phone line. Though your problem is probably the wiring, thought i'd tell you this before you go adding any more phones!

 

[majorj0nny]

Are you aware of REN? You can only have 4 phones (or equivelant) on any phone line. Though your problem is probably the wiring, thought i'd tell you this before you go adding any more phones!

Yeah I know bout that thanks... which is why i disconnected the entire rest of my telephones and just rant he old phone off the main socket...

thanks anyway,

 

[majorj0nny]

hmmm.... I hoped to gain some obvious know-how from looking at my mums wiring (the wiring that seems to work fine for this old phone), but if anything now Im more confused!

Basically she has 2 wires also... a blue with white stripes on 2 and a white with blue stripes on 5... that BT master box goes to a junction box (all it is inside are terminal connection) to a differently coloured wiring from I assume outside... so her whiet with blue stripes is connected to a white solid wire and her blue with white stripes connected to an orange solid wire... Ive also heard about reversed polarities and tried connecting my blue and orange wires in reverse - just the same.

 

[slippyr4]

A phone line is a single pair. Every house, in theory, has at least one "master" socket, which contains a resistor/capacitor configured as a filter to decouple the ring signal from the line. The ring signal is then distributed from the master socket on pin 3.

If you don't bother hooking up the ring line in your extensions, then phones plugged into those sockets will not ring. Unless you use master sockets for all of your extension sockets (this is becoming increasingly popular these days, it's what BT usually do if they install extension wiring for you).

The situation is further confused by the fact that quite a lot of modern handsets (in fact, pretty much all of them) have their own caps inside, so they can ring without a ring signal, so to speak.

majorj0nny, you've probably got either a master socket without a cap in (technically not a master then), or a broken master socket, or you're not plugging the phone into the master socket, or pin 3 isn't hooked up to your extension socket from the master socket.


Furthermore, there is absolutely no benefit in connecting pin 4, it's only used as an additional signal line in PABX systems, and not used at all in the domestic environment.

 

[majorj0nny]

A phone line is a single pair. Every house, in theory, has at least one "master" socket, which contains a resistor/capacitor configured as a filter to decouple the ring signal from the line. The ring signal is then distributed from the master socket on pin 3.

If you don't bother hooking up the ring line in your extensions, then phones plugged into those sockets will not ring. Unless you use master sockets for all of your extension sockets (this is becoming increasingly popular these days, it's what BT usually do if they install extension wiring for you).

The situation is further confused by the fact that quite a lot of modern handsets (in fact, pretty much all of them) have their own caps inside, so they can ring without a ring signal, so to speak.

majorj0nny, you've probably got either a master socket without a cap in (technically not a master then), or a broken master socket, or you're not plugging the phone into the master socket, or pin 3 isn't hooked up to your extension socket from the master socket.


Furthermore, there is absolutely no benefit in connecting pin 4, it's only used as an additional signal line in PABX systems, and not used at all in the domestic environment.

that does make sense come to think of it .. there are only definately 2 wires going to everything else in the house - and all that 'was' modern telephone equipment and Ive never had problems with that stuff... however - this old phone did not ring whole the others did.

the only thing that still confuses me is that the old phone works fine on my mums wiring - and she too only has the 2 wires in use ?

one thought... my original master socket is very old says GPO on it and look original to the house ... my mums is a much more modern BT version ... could the new master at my mums possibly remove the need to have that 3rd wire from the entire house phone network? just like you said new phones can do it wil no 3rd wire ?

Its looking increasingly like my master socket is to blame for this...

 

[slippyr4]

the only thing that still confuses me is that the old phone works fine on my mums wiring - and she too only has the 2 wires in use ?

then her extensions are probably using "master" type sockets. Take one off, and look for a capacitor.

one thought... my original master socket is very old says GPO on it and look original to the house

is that actually a socket? or just a small junction box?

... my mums is a much more modern BT version ... could the new master at my mums possibly remove the need to have that 3rd wire from the entire house phone network?

no. unless (as above) the extensions are "masters"

Its looking increasingly like my master socket is to blame for this...

I agree. I could supply you with NTE5 line boxes at minimal cost, if you cannot find a better source. Should you require, you can get hold of me from my profile page here on diynot.


----------------------------------------------------------------
Secondary socket with no ring cap:-

Master socket with cap (the yellow thing):-

Old GPO "Master" which is not a socket (sometimes brown):-

Hope that lot helps

 

[majorj0nny]

the only thing that still confuses me is that the old phone works fine on my mums wiring - and she too only has the 2 wires in use ?

then her extensions are probably using "master" type sockets. Take one off, and look for a capacitor.

one thought... my original master socket is very old says GPO on it and look original to the house

is that actually a socket? or just a small junction box?

... my mums is a much more modern BT version ... could the new master at my mums possibly remove the need to have that 3rd wire from the entire house phone network?

no. unless (as above) the extensions are "masters"

Its looking increasingly like my master socket is to blame for this...

I agree. I could supply you with NTE5 line boxes at minimal cost, if you cannot find a better source. Should you require, you can get hold of me from my profile page here on diynot.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Hope that lot helps

thanks for all those suggestions Slippyr4 .... very helpful.

to answer what I can .... my own 'master' socket ... its a square faced flush-to-the-wall 'standard' type phone socket - with a hole in the front to plug a phone in.... it says GPO on it but I cannot get to it to open up and see what under because some moron stuck a radiator infront of the thing... I was assuming this was the problem - so i got a capacitor master BT socket and was awaiting my decorating of that front room to remove the rad and install the new master socket when I was at it.

my mum has a small rectangular 'junction box' imediately coming into the house - that goes to a BT socket with a capacitor in it...

Now .... I had settled on ignoring this problem until I decorated (as said aboev), the ONLY thing Ive done recently is add one of them BT separate Caller ID units .... as an unrelated paranoia of nusence calls... and to by sock on bombfire night when someone rang our house - the damn old phone started ringing perfectly as it should ????

as Ive said Ive done nothing to the wiring since I last had a mess - and the ONLy thing I can see that caused this is adding another device to the line...

could this have something to do with voltage ? REN ? I have no idea.

I now have 3 phones on the line (2 digital modern and 1 old), a caller ID unit, and a broadband modem (not on all the time but perminantly plugged in)...

 

[slippyr4]

Possibly REN; although the "REN" is a silly made up marketing unit. The old phone will undoubtedly pull more current to ring than a new phone would.

But it sounds distinctly possible you've got a bad connection on your ring line somewhere.

 

[kendor]

incidentally I have just "resurrected" a GPO external bell that has been screwed to an outside wall ever since it was installed in 1964. I say "resurrected" because all I did was connect up the terminals that a BT man had snipped in about 1980. It still works perfectly.

Be careful that bell will not have a REN rating and will show as a heavy load with a great possibility of damaging exchange equipment! modern ringers are devices of very small loading.

 

[slippyr4]

...with a great possibility of damaging exchange equipment!

Not so. Exchange cards have quite a lot of protection on them. For one, they can deal with a dead short- which often happens in some line fault situations. They can also cope with AC& DC voltage being driven up the line from the customer end.

 

[Lectrician]

Broadband you say.....

Have you fitted a filter to all sockets?? Are you aware that the filters have caps in them, and generate the ring tone for you, so only 1 pair required for the line. This may be why your old phone is suddenly ringing.