Terminating SWA in a buried backbox?

They would appear not to comply with 526.3.

That depends how you interpret it - the words are not precise. What is 'the appropriate product standard'?

[526.3 (v)] does not state that the actual connection has to comply with some standard - just that the equipment should.

Cable is electrical equipment but the cable standards only refer to using glands appropriate for the application

From BS 5467
"Q.4.8 The selection of cable glands, accessories and any associated tools should take account of all aspects of intended use."
 
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We seem to have digressed from the op's plan a little.

If I was to slightly revise the example I gave earlier then.

Surface mounted metal clad box mounted on a wall. A steel conduit bushed into the bottom of the box, and then a dogs leg bent into it so the conduit becomes flushed into the wall about 150mm below the box.

The conduit then travels to under the floor where it finishes with a female bush.

The conduit is earthed at the box through the bush and coulping.

Would you consider this to fully exempt the requirement for RCD protection, and fully comply with the requirements of BS7671:2008?
 
where it finishes with a female bush

What if, instead of using a female bush, you used a bonding nipple?

CO20BNIP.JPG


Phnarr phnarr :LOL:

(It doesn't solve the problem but I couldn't help myself!)
 
RF lighting

Well lets review the situation :D.

If I have understood your example correctly you are using a short length of conduit, earthed via the surface mounted box. This conduit is partly flush in the wall and as such comes with the scope of [522.6.6].

The purpose of the conduit is remove the need to apply additional protection as detailed in [522.6.7].

Similar solutions might be considered for [522.6.8].

Your example removes the diversion caused by having to consider whether the earth connection to the conduit is, or indeed needs to be, accessible for maintenance and inspection. So we should just consider whether additional protection is needed or not.

We are concerned about impact, in particular, impact that causes penetration of the wiring system. The danger that could result is that a nail or similar could make contact with a line conductor resulting in the nail becoming 'live' with respect to any simultaneously accessible exposed-conductive-parts or extraneous-conductive-parts - thus creating a risk of electric shock.

[522.6.6 (ii)] requires that if conduit is to be used as a protective measure it must be earthed. It also requires that it meets the requirements for a protective conductor.

It is important to note that the protection provided by this system does not seek to prevent penetration of the wiring system. Its function is to disconnect the supply to the affected circuit within a specified time should penetration occur.

This requires that:
1) the protective system is robust enough to maintain the faulty circuit until disconnection occurs;
2) the impedance of the faulty circuit is low enough to enable the operation of an overcurrent device within the specified time.

For 1) conduit that meets the requirements of BS 61386 is generally robust enough to carry the resulting fault current without failure (i.e. it is unlikely that it would vaporise and break the fault connection too early).

For 2) confirmation that circuit earth fault loop impedance is low enough at the surface box and, either by inspection or measurement, at the end of the conduit (female bush end).

I see no problems here as conduit to BS 61386 does meet the requirements of BS 7671 for a protective conductor. In addition, using earthed conduit to BS 61386 meets the requirements of [522.6.6 (ii)].

Now you may wish to ponder the following:
1) this method assumes that the fault caused by the nail is a 'dead short' (zero impedance);
2) this method does not offer any protection for neutral to earth faults;
3) if the conduit did vaporise and fail to maintain the fault connection the system will not offer any protection (an RCD might).

However, BS 7671 does not address these issues :D.
 
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That depends how you interpret it - the words are not precise. What is 'the appropriate product standard'?

[526.3 (v)] does not state that the actual connection has to comply with some standard - just that the equipment should.
Oh well that's OK then - I can have inaccessible JBs because they comply with BS 6220.
 
I didn't write the regulation BAS - take it up with JPEL/64.

I am not trying to interpret it such that it would encompass joints, such as those made using conduit couplers, that it was never intended to apply to - are you?

As you well know, these regulations are written by engineers not lawyers - they may fall below your standards but that is all we have.

EDIT:

BTW - how does a joint made within a junction box become part of the equipment?
 
I am not trying to interpret it such that it would encompass joints, such as those made using conduit couplers, that it was never intended to apply to - are you?
I'm not trying to interpret it at all - I am simply reading what is written. As I have observed before, I don't do spirit of, I don't do unwritten intent of, I don't do interpretations of which invent meanings, I do letter of, end of.

I agree with RF that in this case the OP's gland does not have to be accessible for inspection, as it is not forming an electrical joint.

But a coupler between two pieces of conduit is an electrical joint, assuming the conduit is supposed to be earthed over its entire length, and therefore it must be accessible for inspection.


As you well know, these regulations are written by engineers
In which case they should be clear and unambiguous, just like any other engineering specification.

If they have got it wrong then the only way to change it is by a formal amendment to the British Standard, with all that implies in terms of proper process.

A British Standard cannot be changed via guidance publications, it cannot be changed via articles in Wiring Matters, and it sure as hell cannot be changed by people on an internet forum saying "well I don't think it means what it says".


BTW - how does a joint made within a junction box become part of the equipment?
It doesn't, any more than a coupler between two pieces of conduit does.
 
A coupler is part of the conduit system - one is supplied with each length of conduit. Cable is not supplied as part of a junction box.

A coupler is used to form an electrical joint that is part of the equipment and is therefore covered by [526.3 (v)].


I'm not trying to interpret it at all - I am simply reading what is written. As I have observed before, I don't do spirit of, I don't do unwritten intent of, I don't do interpretations of which invent meanings, I do letter of, end of.

Well read what is written then.
 
So if you cant bury a coupler on steel conduit then you cant use steel conduit for the drop to metal boxes buried in walls as they are connected to the conduit via a coupler and bush. Therefore the only way to feed circuits without RCD protection is to bury more than 50mm or to use flexisheild cable.
 
Why would it need to be? It doesn't form part of the electrical connection between the conduit and the back box.
 
A coupler is part of the conduit system - one is supplied with each length of conduit. Cable is not supplied as part of a junction box.
No cable is supplied with a compound filled or encapsulated joint either, but they are exempt via 526.3(ii).

Therefore on the basis of logic and consistency the supply of cable with an accessory designed to join cables is not needed for it to fall into one of the categories in 526.3.


A coupler is used to form an electrical joint that is part of the equipment and is therefore covered by [526.3 (v)]
In that case a brass block with holes and screws in a BS 6220 junction box is used to form an electrical joint that is part of the equipment and is therefore covered by 526.3 (v).


Well read what is written then.
That is exactly what I am doing.
 
BAS I am not interested in your ridiculous attempts to justify the assertion that conduit couplers need to be accessible for inspection - even when they are cast into a concrete screed or are plastered into a wall.

There are probably hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions, installed in this way with no facility for inspection - so the industry clearly does not agree with you.

I would be interested in your explanation of the failure mechanism that you think might occur to cause these joints to loosen. How does a section of conduit in the middle of a cast floor suddenly decide to rotate and loosen a joint.

The failure mechanism for a brass screw terminal can be explained in terms of movement caused by temperature changes.

Now if you are not satisfied then be a good citizen and contact the IET or BSI and inform them of your concerns. You will find the contact details on page 2 of BS 7671.
 
BAS I am not interested in your ridiculous attempts to justify the assertion that conduit couplers need to be accessible for inspection - even when they are cast into a concrete screed or are plastered into a wall.
I realise full well that you are not interested in reading what the regulations actually say because it would be disagreeable for you to find that what they actually say is different to what you have always assumed.


There are probably hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions, installed in this way with no facility for inspection - so the industry clearly does not agree with you.
Nor do the Wiring Regulations agree with them - just read them, they are quite clear. If they are wrong then they need to be changed, but you cannot change them by writing on an internet forum that you believe they are wrong.


I would be interested in your explanation of the failure mechanism that you think might occur to cause these joints to loosen. How does a section of conduit in the middle of a cast floor suddenly decide to rotate and loosen a joint.
I don't need to provide an explanation, it would be of no relevance to what the regulations actually say.


The failure mechanism for a brass screw terminal can be explained in terms of movement caused by temperature changes.
Indeed it can, but such failure mechanisms are not identified in the Wiring Regulations as being criteria for people to decide for themselves whether a joint needs to be accessible. The regulations just list what types of joints do not need to be.
 

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