The Blame Game

[^woody^]

Was the Kyoto Protocol on trial? That was one of the biggest drivers for the cladding and use of efficient external insulation craze.

Anyway, there is no single person to "blame", rather a collection of failed processes and systems.

Check out the building and regulation forums for the numerous posts on how to "get around" regulations, or how to get "sign off" without doing certain work or spending certain money, and the often advice by some to "use a private inspector, as they are more forgiving". So the appetite not to ensure that buildings are safe is alive and kicking.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Was the Kyoto Protocol on trial? That was one of the biggest drivers for the cladding and use of efficient external insulation craze.

I hope you're not actually suggesting that people should be left to either freeze or pay stupid amounts for heating due to living in substandard accomodation.

Insulation's good stuff, I've invested in lots of it for my own house, not because I hug trees but because it pays you back within a reasonable length of time. Hopefully we don't need to debate obvious truths.

It was decided that the blocks needed improving, cladding probably was a sensible solution, given that these awful tower blocks sadly already exist and that some poor sods live in them. Presumably it was much less expensive than knocking the things down and building proper homes. But there are lots of materials you can make the stuff from, the issue is that the dangerous ones are cheaper so there's more profit to be made from risking lives.

But yes, the control systems we have here are nonsense and not fit for purpose. If this report was worth anything at all then that would be its conclusion. But I doubt that the establishment is likely to blame the establishment, they'll just keep waffling for a few more years until everyone gets fed up of caring about it.

 

[^woody^]

I hope you're not actually suggesting that people should be left to either freeze or pay stupid amounts for heating due to living in substandard accomodation.

Insulation's good stuff, I've invested in lots of it for my own house, not because I hug trees but because it pays you back within a reasonable length of time. Hopefully we don't need to debate obvious truths.

It was decided that the blocks needed improving, cladding probably was a sensible solution, given that these awful tower blocks sadly already exist and that some poor sods live in them. Presumably it was much less expensive than knocking the things down and building proper homes. But there are lots of materials you can make the stuff from, the issue is that the dangerous ones are cheaper so there's more profit to be made from risking lives.

But yes, the control systems we have here are nonsense and not fit for purpose. If this report was worth anything at all then that would be its conclusion. But I doubt that the establishment is likely to blame the establishment, they'll just keep waffling for a few more years until everyone gets fed up of caring about it.

Rockwool has been available, however the demands of Kyoto meant that more efficient (but less safe) products were required.

Now those products are being replaced with Rockwool. Sod the targets.

 

[Brigadier]

Were the cavities fire - stopped (at all, let alone effectively) at each floor?

I heard the disaster live - it was on R5L - and the fire reportedly spread via the outside of the building at an alarming rate.

 

[denso13]

The 1960s tower blocks were mostly built with probably enough open land around them to house the same number of occupants in houses

Nowhere near enough land, or the money to demolish the towers and build houses.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

There probably would be enough money if the tower blocks had never been built and/or the management of the HAs didn't pay themselves absurd salaries...

Inside Housing chief executive salary survey 2022

Total pay for a housing association chief executive rose an average of 1.8% during the past year, some way below inflation

www.insidehousing.co.uk

With data from 155 housing associations from across the UK, we can reveal that average total pay for a chief executive was £193,069 in the financial year 2021-22.

Snouts, troughs, the usual story these days. But there's no money of course.

Re Grenfell specifically, forgive my ignorance but I've read reports stating that the insulation was Polyethylene. Obviously I can understand that wrapping a tower block in essentially foamed carrier bags is going to be a problem. But was it actually PIR, and/or has PIR been referred to as Polyethylene in reports about it? I realise that ultimately everything's oil derived so you could say it's all the same stuff taking the broadest possible definition, but I can't find a clear answer.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Ah, perhaps Wikipedia has the answer...

Grenfell Tower fire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Combustible panels with polyethylene were put up on top of insulation known as Celotex RS5000, made from polyisocyanurate, which burns when heated, giving off toxic cyanide fumes

So the combination was the issue? Perhaps the polyethylene was the sheet material rather than the foamed inner?

If so then has someone concluded that PIR with metal is OK or not?

 

[denso13]

There probably would be enough money if the tower blocks had never been built and/or the management of the HAs didn't pay themselves absurd salaries...

Funding has absolutely nothing to do with salaries. But you keep going with your sound bites if you must...

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Should PIR be used in any low-rise building now? I have a room with it under a chipboard floor and above a plasterboard ceiling.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Funding has absolutely nothing to do with salaries. But you keep going with your sound bites if you must...

Do you seriously think that hundreds or even thousands of people earning £100,000s each has no effect on how much money those organisations have?

Please explain the logic of your bottomless pit of money system, perhaps you've discovered a way in which everyone could earn a massive salary and we could all be rich.

 

[denso13]

Do you seriously think that hundreds or even thousands of people earning £100,000s each has no effect on how much money those organisations have?

Of course it does. But I didn't write that did I? Wages have no effect on the ability to invest in new housing.

 

[Odds]

Modern architecture is mostly garbage... I suspect the Grenfell enquiry has achieved its real objectives, which were to muddle and confuse while taking as long as possible so that people lose the will to care about any kind of justice and forget about it. This is Britain, where the establishment is never held to account.

I've never seen the attraction for glass and steel towers, growing out the City of London, like a kind of fungus on the fine Georgian architecture surrounding them.

However: Grenfell Famillies [remain] United in their campaign for justice and demands for accountability.
I vividly recall reading a story in the Times a week or two after the event, about a company director responsible for installing the cladding and expected further revelations...nothing happened and the story was quietly dropped (suppressed?) as inquiries began to avoid casting blame and lawyers began to protect their clients.
T'was ever thus.

 

[Dork Lard]

However: Grenfell Famillies [remain] United in their campaign for justice and demands for accountability.
I vividly recall reading a story in the Times a week or two after the event, about a company director responsible for installing the cladding and expected further revelations...nothing happened and the story was quietly dropped (suppressed?) as inquiries began to avoid casting blame and lawyers began to protect their clients.
T'was ever thus.

Journalists will often drop a subject like a hot potatoe because publishing their findings can seriously jeopardise any future legal proceedings. They will also occasionally purposefully publish information that they know will jeopardise any legal proceedings.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

...then it's in the establishment's interests to keep any such proceedings rolling on for as long as possible, as it keeps the story suppressed.

So far, five years to establish pretty much nothing has been a great start. Just keep it going long enough, until everyone involved has retired or died. That way nobody has to answer for anything.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Of course it does. But I didn't write that did I? Wages have no effect on the ability to invest in new housing.

Go on... please explain how an organisation paying a massive wage bill doesn't end up having less money than if it hadn't?