The human rights act...

[jockscott]

We are too soft in many aspects of life in this country. Point aside, you now only need to sign on once a fortnight instead of weekly! I think you should have to do it daily.

Hmmm I think the "dole" have tightened up quite a bit conny. My nephew is on the dole, and has to apply for at least 16 jobs per week. He now has to attend a course (designed ??) to get him back into employment. Of course I say designed to get him back into work, when in reality, it's been designed to create jobs for those running the courses. I'm sure the government is aware of the amount of jobless V the number of actual jobs.
At this time of year, the jobless figures tend to drop as temporary jobs become available in the run up to Christmas. In January, the jobless figures will rise again. (probably even more so once the Roma's and Bulgars arrive in this sceptred isle))

 

[JBR]

It is a foolish mistake to imagine that severity of sentence deters criminals.

I'm afraid it's unlikely that we'll ever find out whether or not you are right.

 

[JBR]

how many cars do you see illegally parked today?

Every time I go into our local town centre I see cars parked on double yellow lines a matter of literally only a few yards from the entrance to the car park. Considering the road is quite busy, mainly with people entering and leaving the car park, they cause quite an obstruction. They don't care, though, as the council doesn't employ traffic wardens any more, so why should they bother?

Incidentally, the car park costs 20p for two hours, so the selfish parkers are either tight-fisted Scots/Jews/Yorkshiremen, very poor, or too lazy to walk a few yards.

I look forward to the day they decide to bring back parking wardens. I'll make a point of going down there just to have a good laugh.

 

[JBR]

In January, the jobless figures will rise again. (probably even more so once the Roma's and Bulgars arrive in this sceptred isle))

I've just read in the Daily Mail that several important employers (including the NHS) are advertising in Romania and Bulgaria for applicants for jobs next year. I suppose their incentive is that they can get workers for lower pay.

 

[jockscott]

JBR, I think you'll find it's agencies that are doing the advertising. Agencies will promise people the earth, then fail to deliver unfortunately. When I was unemployed a couple of years ago, I signed up with a few agencies. Most would phone up offering a month here or a fortnight there. When I went for the jobs I found that the month had magically shortened to a week, and a fortnight was for only a few days. Agencies tell lies. In my last position I used to use agency staff. I'd phone an agency up telling them I wanted xx amount of people for one week, or perhaps a fortnight. When they sent staff, these people were telling me the agency had told them there would be a month or so of work.

 

[JohnD]

how many cars do you see illegally parked today? (meaning on the West End cameras in the links)

Every time I go into our local town centre I see cars parked on double yellow lines

That's because the West End of London is crawling with traffic wardens and police, and they keep hoist-away-trucks parked nearby.

So if you park there, you are pretty certain to be caught, ticketed and hoisted in a matter of minutes, and to lose the use of your car until you have paid the fine and charge, and gone to collect it from the pound.

In your local town centre, I am sure that the certainty and immediacy of detection does not apply, so local drivers are unconcerned about parking restrictions.

It is well established through behavioural studies, that peoples' behaviour is dependent on the certainty, immediacy and personal effects of their actions. New Army recruits very quickly adjust their behaviour because they are under almost constant supervision.

Smoking is the most striking example of this. Think of the severerity of the results. But they are not certain and immediate, so they are easily ignored.

 

[LastMagicBean]

It is a foolish mistake to imagine that severity of sentence deters criminals.

That's nonsense John. You're killing your own argument.
In your yellow line scenario........
On the one hand you're stating severity of punishment as a deterrent doesn't work, and on the other you're suggesting the huge fines and tow-aways in the West End result in people not doing it.

If for example the fine was 20p and £1 tow-away fee people would park where they liked.
But if the fine was loss of an arm for a ticket and both legs as a tow-away fee then nobody would do it.

Surely.???

 

[jockscott]

He also seems to be confusing parking on double yellows with murder , rape, child abuse etc. I'm sure if the penalty for murder or rape was a £30 fine, there would be a hell of a lot more murders and rapes committed.

 

[JohnD]

No, if you read what I actually wrote, several times:

there are so many traffic wardens, police and hoisting trucks in the West End that if you park illegally you will be spotted within minutes, ticketed, and shortly afterwards towed or hoisted away. If you are not familiar with central London you may not have witnessed this. Even the bus companies have people looking out for illegally parked cars which can obstruct bus lanes, and will call them in to enforcement by radio. The streets are also littered with traffic cameras.

So the consequences of your actions are immediate and certain. they are also personal, since you will have a fine or lose the use of your car for a period. Many of the people in some of these areas are unconcerned with the cost of a ticket since they are rolling in money. Being clamped or hoisted is a great inconvenience, though.

In more slovenly towns where people can get away with bad parking, they might, possibly, get a ticket occasionally, possibly through the post, and maybe pay it after a few weeks. This is not sufficient to change their behaviour.

 

[LastMagicBean]

I'm sure if the penalty for murder or rape was a £30 fine, there would be a hell of a lot more murders and rapes committed.

Exactly. I can't see why people don't see that.

 

[JohnD]

jockscott

I gather you have not yet grasped the concept of influencing people's behaviour, and finding the most effective ways to do it.

Personally I would not commit rape or murder of other crimes even if the penalty was only a 5p fine. Perhaps in your case its only fear of punishment that holds you back. That's not how I work.

 

[LastMagicBean]

John, 'Immediate and certain' has nothing to do with deterrent working or failing.

Deterrent does not depend on getting nicked in 15 minutes or twenty days.

Surely you're not suggesting it does.????

 

[JBR]

JBR, I think you'll find it's agencies that are doing the advertising. Agencies will promise people the earth, then fail to deliver unfortunately. When I was unemployed a couple of years ago, I signed up with a few agencies. Most would phone up offering a month here or a fortnight there. When I went for the jobs I found that the month had magically shortened to a week, and a fortnight was for only a few days. Agencies tell lies. In my last position I used to use agency staff. I'd phone an agency up telling them I wanted xx amount of people for one week, or perhaps a fortnight. When they sent staff, these people were telling me the agency had told them there would be a month or so of work.

Yes, you're quite right. Agencies are offering the work, although the NHS is one of the organisations to which they are intending to supply workers.

 

[jockscott]

John D , I do grasp the concept of influencing people's behaviour. After all I'm not the one harping on about parking your car on double yellows. Neither do I think there are "regional" influences on sentencing in this country ( much as you would have us believe, the courts are not "slovenly" away from London and the provinces)
Personally I wouldn't rape, or murder someone if they gave me a medal for doing so.
If you believe that the solving of crime and dealing with it quickly, is the deterrent, then sadly I think, your very much out of touch (much like judges in court these days) with the British Public as a whole.

EDIT,, I now think I see what your getting at,,,,,,, Your advocating , flooding the streets with police officers (thus creating thousands of jobs all in one go) and this would be the ultimate deterrent? Hmmmmmm , somehow, I don't think the government are likely to do this anytime soon. (perhaps you'd like to see traffic wardens given the power to arrest murderers and rapists though?)

 

[Space cat]

Agencies tell lies.

So do employers. This is a bit off topic but --

When I was on the dole many years ago, I signed up with a few agencies. I even got a few interviews. The only problem was that the jobs didn't actually exist. One employer was quite blatant about it; he was bidding for a contract and he only wanted to know how many engineers he could get at short notice. When I reported back to the agency, they weren’t the least bit surprised. It was a common problem but there was nothing they could do.