THIS IS A JOKE

that is my point. these so called plumbers have de-valued our skills that we have worked extremely hard for an then they have the cheek to ask our advise when there the ones under cutting us OUTRAGEOUS :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Such moaning is so pathetic.

Who sets the correct amount to charge for a job?
There must be plumbers charging more than you and some who charge less than you.

So are you de-valuing the plumber who charges more than you?
Or anyone who charges more that you, is ripping off their customers and anyone charging less is a cowboy and is de-valuing the trade?

Technology overwhelms the skills required, as a pipe that simply plugs into another, renders your use ineffective. If lead pipes, and soldering were still required, but in this day and age, plastic pipes, plug and play!
 
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I could teach a baseball cap wearing 'innit' idiot to solder a pipe in 20 minutes, solvent weld plastic waste pipe in even less. But would the toilet flush hot and the bath waste run away without sucking his toes off, if at all. The plumbing craft is more than just Meccano, it involves system design, skill at rounding obstacles (successfully), and the big one! being able to read other peoples mistakes with only 1/5 th of the pipework visible.

Being able to weld two bits of steel together doesn't make you a bridge builder, car manufacturer, or ship builder.

The gas industry is the same, five weeks intensive 'passing training' will not make you a Gas Engineer - no matter how much you've paid. Blisters, cockups and far too many bad days will - all free though.
 
Well the way I see it a massive experiment is being carried out on the british public , inorder to save money , save the planet , they are having technology that most probably do not want dumped on them & they will pay a heavy price for it in the future .

Condensing boilers have only been fitted on masse since 2005 , most of them (all ?) are probably rubbish anyway ?? in order to remain more competitive manus are dumping yet more un-tried & tested rubbish into the market place with the latest in built electronic more efficient , save you money ?? gizmo that will go pear shaped , when it all pans out those offering boiler insurance will need to up there prices in order to cover there costs , at the moment the old 20 year in-efficient insured boilers are subsidising the new , all in all there probably will not be enough repair engineers to keep up :)
 
Well the way I see it a massive experiment is being carried out on the british public , inorder to save money , save the planet , they are having technology that most probably do not want dumped on them & they will pay a heavy price for it in the future .

Condensing boilers have only been fitted on masse since 2005 , most of them (all ?) are probably rubbish anyway ?? in order to remain more competitive manus are dumping yet more un-tried & tested rubbish into the market place with the latest in built electronic more efficient , save you money ?? gizmo that will go pear shaped , when it all pans out those offering boiler insurance will need to up there prices in order to cover there costs , at the moment the old 20 year in-efficient insured boilers are subsidising the new , all in all there probably will not be enough repair engineers to keep up :)

The way it seems to me is that a 20 year old boiler, is well built, and won't require any repair, and would last at least another 20 years, whereas a 10 year old boiler, is badly built, and paying insurance for it is a must, but when a claim for a repair is made, the boiler is deemed unrepairable, and a new badly built boiler has to be installed. And with that the skills of repair are lost; as in the TV repair industry, the monitors of computers, then computers themselves, as basically everything is either throwaway, or return to base. Boilers are used as throwaway items, with a subsidy of replace your replace your old boiler, (which has worked without fail for 20 years), for something that will fail, and then you will have to buy another one. That doesn't strike me as good for the environment.

My 2nd boiler is broken, it requires a £150 part to be fitted, at £150 labour, and has already had money spent on it, so fit a 3rd boiler? or repair? It works randomly at heating the house, or floods or doesn't supply hot water.
 
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I dont have a cscs card & dont want one either, so the colour & its attendant bragging rights are a mystery to me. Also I find it a little harsh that career changers are treated with such derision. I've worked with jumped up hoddies who could hold their own with time served brickies. I've also worked with so called tradesmen who shouldn't be allowed out without their parents.
Some people can learn a trade in a year or two & some couldn't in a lifetime.
 
transam condensing boilers are not new technology i was installing Yorkstar condensing domestic boilers and Hoval commercial condensing boilers in the mid 90'sthey were well made and we didnt have any problems with them I think the problem is now manufacturers source oarts from the cheapest suppliers usually Chinese and rebrand them as their own.
 
I wasn’t going to rise to the bait, but I can’t let this go.

I spent four years learning my trade, my profession. Hard work, fifty per cent in college, 50% on the job. At the end of it all, though, I got a certificate to say I was qualified. But my learning and training didn’t stop there. I got a job and worked all hours – days and nights – gaining more experience and skills as well as developing those I already had. Then I went on to get further qualified. This meant more time in college, more studying and greater challenges, but I got what I wanted and as a result in a new job became senior in my field. Not particularly well paid, but I loved what I was doing. Less than a year later I was made redundant. My employer? The NHS. My ‘trade’? Registered Nurse (Children). A university degree counts for nothing after that.

I decided that if the NHS didn’t need me, I didn’t need the NHS, so decided to change career and re-train. I have so far spent three years re-training to join the plumbing trade, applying the same degree of dedication and commitment to this as I did to my nursing career. I still have a long way to go, but I take pride in my work, acknowledge my limitations and don’t do anything I am not competent to undertake. The key word there is ‘competent’.

So there it is. Times change, teaching and training methods change. I fully respect those ‘time served’ tradesmen, who have built up a wealth of knowledge and experience, and if I could have done a ‘traditional’ apprenticeship I would have, but that wasn’t an option for me. I would also have welcomed the opportunity to work (on a voluntary basis) alongside an established tradesman in order to get more on-the-job experience, but no-one I spoke to was willing to countenance that. I did not get a redundancy payout from the NHS as I had taken a break in service to get further qualified. I am using my own money to pay for my training, I receive no grants or support other than the encouragement I am given by my family and I have never claimed any benefits from the State. I have made sacrifices to do this and continue to do so. I accept that I may never get rich, and have treated with scepticism some of the claims regarding earnings potential made by the training organisation I signed up with. I am paying for this myself in more ways than one, but I am enjoying what I do.

Remember this. You aren’t immortal and you won’t be working in the trade forever. There will be others behind you who will have to take up the baton and some of them may be like me; career-changers who have come into the trade from different backgrounds but who have the advantage of bringing with them life-experience and knowledge from other work environments. In my case it is an ability to deal with people, to communicate, to empathise with my customers.

It is not my intention to undercut other tradesmen. I will charge what is a fair price for the job and is a fee that meets my own costs and needs, and one that also reflects my current level of experience. But we are operating in a very competitive market and the customer has a lot of choice. I recognise that if I want to be successful I will have to be no less than very good. As in any walk of life there are good and there are bad. I hope I will be as good a plumber as I was a nurse. It’s not an easy way to earn a living, something I accepted from the outset, but I am starting to get work through recommendations, which suggests I am getting something right.

So 5times and others like you, I fully understand where you are coming from and I acknowledge that to you career-changers like me may appear to be a threat. We’re not. I and others like me want to work with you, not against you, but if you can’t accept that then I feel sorry for you.

Whatever the future brings in these uncertain times, we are here to stay. Build a bridge, get over it.
 
Well said mate!
Couldn't have been put better, I 've been in this trade donkeys years & don't give a damn how you learnt. My college instructor was a veteran of the Spanish Civil War, thats how old I am. I learn every day on the job and from younger less experienced people (which is basically most people these days:)).
As for undercutting, I'm charging less now than years ago, it's just the way things are. I won't work for peanuts, but I'd rather work than not & time is a slippery character.

"We are such things as dreams are made on and our small lives are rounded with a sleep", we're all working men getting by & should treat each other as such
 
transam condensing boilers are not new technology i was installing Yorkstar condensing domestic boilers and Hoval commercial condensing boilers in the mid 90'sthey were well made and we didnt have any problems with them I think the problem is now manufacturers source oarts from the cheapest suppliers usually Chinese and rebrand them as their own.

Agreed condensing boiler tech is not new , the technology has been around since at least 1947 , the Dutch gas board ?? were installing steamers in the early 70's , the than BG were feild trialing them in the early 80's I think , but in the Uk they have only been fitted en masse since 2005 , & if it was not for a change in regs I doubt that many would bother , joe Public will pay a heavy price , next thing we will have the Talking Boiler with an in-built voice synthersiser ?? come to think of it its already been done

As for the poorly trained CC's ect , the UK is probably the european capital ?? (world?) of self built vechles ! did it my self no qualifications no prior exp , needed ! just have ago , & long may it continue :D
 
So, on a subject as dangerous as gas, your advice is... don't help someone who's making an effort to double check. And when the streets are full of kids who could be excellent at it and will otherwise turn to crime, your advice is... "**** off".

If their work is being signed off as safe, you're probably just sh1t at it and annoyed some younger guy is beating you for less money.

We had a "pro" gas fitter round recently, been doing it his whole life.

Absolutely SH1T at anything manual and life in general, constantly going on about how good he was at it (he was declaring bankruptcy, after not paying his account. The account where he was paying more than he needed to because he couldn't be bothered looking anywhere else and his mates worked there).

I could list endless errors and complete failures by this guy. I have literally just sat down having spent the day finishing SOME of work he was paid a lot of £££ to do. Nothing is straight. Tails are bent back on themselves so sharply they're cut off, randomly switching from copper to plastic and back again (so he can light his blow torch), soil pipes "finished" with a wad of rags stuck in as opposed to a £1 end cap and the 5s it takes to push it in... And this was a life long pro, trained from the roots up.

Some really good builders were round (older guys) and were complaining about me constantly using toolstation. Next time I saw them, they're using toolstation.

Got to move with the times and evolve to stay alive.

Competition isn't a bad thing. And anyone involved with manual work should like the idea of others getting involved and working cleanly and as a team. The anger is misplaced and needs directing at the utter chumps, be they old or new.

You're coming across as some guy who was way too excited about earning vast amounts of cash when there were only 7 of you in the class. Try widening your skill base and working out how they're beating you on the prices rather than complaining about it - that isn't going to solve anything. The fact you're bitching about it so much suggests you probably haven't made the effort where you need to - complaining over changing.

Here's a super offensive question, but one worth seriously considering. Are you sure you're not just lazy?
 
You need to get off the fence Johnher*** :D

In most cases good old Joe Public gets what he deserves , but than blames every one else when it go's pear shaped .

Ultimately do I really care ?? maybe ? maybe not ? :)
 
i agree fully with 5 times here. i for one have gone in behind some toss pot cc an very nearly left something dangerous fitted by him. i rang him, he was a nice bloke but just did not understand the job, he was a butcher, turned gas man ha ha stop it your all the same to me,

these nice little stories from the nurse, you made the wrong choice in the first place so dont try an pull on are hart strings
 
Well I have to own up to being in the CC/CCC (course cowboy/career change chancer) category and thought I'd put in my ha'penny's worth

I got retrained under a GWINTO (Gas and Water Industry National Training Organisation) scheme. A Public/Private partnership funded 50/50 by British Gas/Central Government. I did 9 months at college including 2 six week work experience periods with a local company of heating engineers, after which I sat my ACS. I then worked for BG for 18 months - Another 15 weeks in their training centre and the rest in their "Buddy" system, following other engineers around.

I soon got bored of only being allowed to wave a hoover and a Telegan at a boiler and handed in my notice to set up on my own. That was 5 years ago.

The gas industry doesn't seem to be dead to me! I get more work than I can deal with, but have not been brave enough to take anyone on. I base my boiler change quotes on £500 a day but supply materials at cost. Breakdowns and short jobs I charge at £80 for the first hour and £40/hr after that. I stopped advertising last year and between the referrals I get from my association with a well known boiler manufacturer and word of mouth, I'm as busy as I want to be and make a comfortable living.

I'm lucky in that I wasn't starting from scratch. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and worked as field engineer in the offshore drilling industry for 9 years and as a software engineer for 4 years before I retrained (long story!). So I had a lot of transferable skills.

16 people started my course. I right mixed bag! There were two guys on it under the rehabilitation of offenders scheme, one a 30 year old Glaswegian who had spent most of his 20s in prison for various drug related crimes and who I suspect had only ever picked up a screw-driver to stab someone with. 12 people finished the course and 6 were taken on by British Gas. As far as I know the others are all still working for them and have their hands held to varying degrees!

Of the remaining 6 only one, a 55 year old with an engineering back ground who had worked on the gas conversion programme way back when, is still in the industry. The other 5 all fell by the wayside very quickly. Their biggest problem was finding an employer for them to gain experience with.

Despite my strong technical back ground it's still been a steep learning curve for me. I was lucky enough to meet a time served plumber/heating engineer with 35 years experience that is very knowledgeable and generous with his advice.

I was also very lucky to get excellent training at Steve Willis Training and Assessment Centre in Burgess Hill. Can't praise them highly enough for anyone contemplating training.

I'd like to give something back and offer someone the chance to learn and gain experience. I considered taking on an apprentice, but kids these days... the huge responsibilities thrust on the shoulders of employers scares the s**t out of me too!

Having worked for a multi-national corporation for many years, I love being my own boss now and don't think I could ever go back to work for someone else. That said, I work harder now than I ever did as a wage slave, even offshore.
 
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