Time for a new boiler but everyone's advice is conflicting!

[adamtw36]

Hi all, been lurking on the forum over the years and found some great sage advice so firstly, thanks to all. Done lots of reading up but this is why I am now posting the same question lots of people ask.

Background

We have a 1920's brick built detached house, 4 bedrooms, mostly cavity wall insualted, loft insulated and replacement wooden double glazed windows. We have 14 Radiators in total, one family bathroom with an electric shower and a bath, and in total, 5 hot water taps including the one in the bath. There are no ensuites or shower rooms etc. It's just me and the wife, no kids or lodgers - we did have some mice in the loft but they are dead now!

It has a wheezy old Potterton Puma 100E combi (one of the first of it's type I am told but what do I know). We have spent £350 each year for 3 years on maintenance contracts to keep it alive and we are tired of it's pathetic hot water performance (over a minute to get warm water coming from the tap with flow rate up and down like a Frenchman's trousers!) Clearly we know that we could have bought a new boiler with that money by now.

We have decided enough is enough, time for a new boiler. The wife wants a traditional water cylinder affair - I am thinking a system boiler rather than conventional as loft access is for midgets. We have the airing cupboard space next to our existing boiler to put a cylinder in. She favours this based on getting hot water to the taps quicker.

I am thinking that a new Combi could be ten times better than what we have, with the added advantage of a simpler install and less spend, plus the increased efficiencies etc from having a SEDBUK Band G boiler to a Band A boiler.

I have asked everyone I know and people I meet about this, I am becoming a 'Boiler Bore' .

When I ask them what brand is best I get the following responses, and herein lies my confusion and dismay.

1. Worcester Bosch are the best
2. Worcester Bosch are rubbish
3. Vaillant are the best
4. Vaillant are rubbish
5. Baxi Duotec are great
6. Don't touch Baxi at all
7. They are all as good as each other, it depends on the quality of the installation
8. Don't ask British Gas to quote you, they are hopeless
9. Get BG in to quote as they sell all the brands and at least they are a big firm that you have some comeback should things go wrong

So, my questions are thus:

1. Will it cost me less to install a replacement Combi rather than convert to a system boiler and should it be fairly straightforward i.e no need to rip open walls and pipes etc (It's all in the airing cupboard upstairs with visible pipework and doesn't need to be pretty)

2. Are new Combi's any good? Will I still be waiting a minute for hot water to appear at my taps?

3. Can I trust BG to do a good job?

4. Which brand would you recommend (cue conflicting opinions!)

5. What Model and KW would you recommend?

6. Does anyone know a good reliable installer in the East midlands (Melton Mowbray area)

7. How long might the work take, assuming it's a replacement combi, rip out old, plumb in new, test etc? 2 days? 5 days?

Many thanks for all help, opinions and suggestions.

 

[cantaloup63]

Others will no doubt be able to advise, but could you clarify the bit in your opening post about variable water pressure?

 

[Agile]

There are too many questions and most are not relevant!

For example how long will it take. That depends on how carefully the work is done, how many are working on it etc.

I would take longer because I prefer to work alone and I do everything very carefully.

If you want it done quickly then you could have five people all working together and do it in one day but that would be more expensive and as no one is taking pride in his job it will

The best system is a boiler and a hot water cylinder ideally an unvented if the mains water supply is adequate.

Individual opinions on any boiler make are as irrelevant and an opinion on a Ford Mondeo.

Tony

 

[adamtw36]

It's not the mains water pressure which is variable, its the output from the boiler.

e.g. Turn on hot tap, hear boiler fire up, water flows is weak and cold, water flow gets better and slightly warm, then dies away to a dribble, then 20 seconds or so later when the boiler has got itself sorted the flow increases and the temp does too and then it stays constant.

I realise there are loads of variables associated but what I am after is people's experience of which brands and models have been shown to require most remedial work, more call-outs and ergo are less reliable.

 

[Agile]

What you are describing is a feature of the Puma which reduces the flow rate if the temperature is low to enable faster heat up.

Tony

 

[adamtw36]

There are too many questions and most are not relevant!

Q: Why are they not relevant? I have read hundreds of posts on this forum where people ask vague questions, offering no background or quantification and they get lots of helpful replies. To say my questions are irrelevant is just silly? All the questions are relevant to anyone looking to replace their boiler. I would argue almost all 'punters' would want to know these things.

For example how long will it take. That depends on how carefully the work is done, how many are working on it etc.

Q:Is it not possible to give a ball park for an average boiler swap? All I am looking for is "it could be 2 days" or "most likely a week if done properly" - I'm not asking for a quote!

I would take longer because I prefer to work alone and I do everything very carefully.

Q: OK, so how long would YOU take?

If you want it done quickly then you could have five people all working together and do it in one day but that would be more expensive and as no one is taking pride in his job it will

The best system is a boiler and a hot water cylinder ideally an unvented if the mains water supply is adequate.

Q: OK, great, but WHY is this the best please? (so I can understand more)

Individual opinions on any boiler make are as irrelevant and an opinion on a Ford Mondeo.

Sorry but this makes no sense to me, can you please explain?
Tony

 

[stem]

Personally, I wouldn't have a combi and here are my reasons why. Others will have different opinions as you have realised already, you have to weed out the things that are important for your needs.

1. Combi’s are more complicated than heat only boilers so they have more components inside, thus increasing the possibility of a failure. Boilers are not suitable for DIY work, so repairs should be carried out by suitably qualified people with parts that generally have to come from the manufacturer. On the other hand, heat only boilers can have a some components externally mounted. Pump, motorised valve, cylinder thermostat, programmer etc., these can be easily replaced by a competent DIYer or local plumber, and with any manufacturers parts obtainable from local plumbers merchants.

2. Combi’s are slow to get hot water to the taps if the boiler is starting from cold. When a tap is turned on. The burner has to go through its ignition sequence, heat up the boiler, then transfer the hot water to a heat exchanger that when that has warmed up eventually heats the water supplying your hot taps. You could of course use the preheat setting that fires the boiler every so often to keep it warm just in case you need some hot water (Some feel that this is a waste of energy)

3. Generating sufficient heat to instantaneously heat cold mains water requires a considerable volume of gas. Because of this, sometimes the existing gas supply pipe is too small. Often in boiler upgrades, the larger unsightly pipe is routed around the outside of the house.

4. With a heat only boiler, you can have an immersion heater to provide hot water when the boiler fails (and they do fail, check this forum) with a combi The only back up is a kettle.

5. In most homes mains water comes in via a single 15mm pipe which limits the water it can supply. With a combi boiler that single pipe feeds not only the cold water taps WC’s etc, but also the water that is heated by the combi for the hot taps. This means that if any cold water is used at the same time as the hot water, the hot water flow will be reduced accordingly. With a heat only boiler and hot water cylinder the tanks provide a stored supply of hot water, so for normal use, are unaffected by cold water being used elsewhere.

 

[tourcd]

When I ask them what brand is best I get the following responses, and herein lies my confusion and dismay.

1. Worcester Bosch are the best
2. Worcester Bosch are rubbish
3. Vaillant are the best
4. Vaillant are rubbish
5. Baxi Duotec are great
6. Don't touch Baxi at all
7. They are all as good as each other, it depends on the quality of the installation
8. Don't ask British Gas to quote you, they are hopeless
9. Get BG in to quote as they sell all the brands and at least they are a big firm that you have some comeback should things go wrong

The reason for this is each installer has a preferred boiler manufacturer. I guess this is down to...

1) The discount they get when purchasing the kit (so a bigger profit margin for them when selling to you)
2) Familiarity of fitting.
3) Support from the manufacturer on the phone when something goes wrong.

btw - I totally agree with no. 8 and number 7 is a big factor. No point having the worlds best boiler if it's incorrectly installed.

 

[adamtw36]

Stem

They are some great things to consider, good advice, many thanks indeed.

I'm not looking for one golden answer but lots of considered and experienced opinions on the subject.


Top marks, go to the front of the class.

 

[simond]

You are going along the right lines if you go with bosch or vaillant. Neither are rubbish.

Make sure it is powerflushed.

Choose an installer who is affiliated with the manufacturer and you will get a 5 yr warranty. This is worth having, it gives you the peace of mind, without cost.

Get 2 or maybe 3 quotes, and choose the person you trust. With the experience you have gained from this forum, ask a few questions, but nicely of course.

I do quotes all the time, and I want it to be a job interview. I enjoy being asked, because it tells me the customer cares and wants a decent job.

If the customer calls me mate, and says 'dont care, whatever's the cheapest', i know i am wasting my time. They will care when it goes wrong, and they'll probably be rude about it. The cheapest boilers will go wrong, and when they do, the manufacturer support is usually lousy.

So ask the right questions, there are a few things i dislike about parts of Vaillant and Worcester boilers, i'll tell you what they are and you can make your own mind up.

At the end of the day, its just a small domestic boiler but a little homework is never wasted.

 

[BlueMoonMole]

Great Post from Simondo there...

As has been mentioned; The system will usually only be as good as the money you spend on it.

The questions you're asking aren't all worth answering, but your best bet is to get some local engineers to come and quote and get a quote from British Gas.

Everyone's opinion on whats best, who's best etc. will obviously vary.

It all depends what you want.

Leading brands all have their ups and downs. None of them are 100% perfect. But some of them will do you justice for your money.

 

[adamtw36]

Thanks very much for the replies, some more great info.

I'm not going to say that money is no option but we have always been of the mindset that you should do it once and do it right, and that normally means spending a bit more and getting quality products installed by a better engineer.

We do have a trusted plumber, waiting for him to come back to us, sadly he's not that local but he is amazingly thorough (he can't leave previous shoddy workmanship without fixing it, even if it's nothing to do with what he is being paid for). Plus, nothing is a problem and he relaxes you, that everything will be fine no matter how hard it seems. That's a brilliant
gift as far as I'm concerned.

 

[cantaloup63]

delete

 

[Agile]

Q:Is it not possible to give a ball park for an average boiler swap? All I am looking for is "it could be 2 days" or "most likely a week if done properly" - I'm not asking for a quote!

Not really!

You dont need a boiler swap, you need a heat only boiler and a cylinder.

To swap a combi, many do it ( badly ) in 6 hours! No cleaning of the system, no cementing around the flue. No touching up with paint on the wall! Sometimes thats with a helper and sometimes as one man.

I say about 2-3 days. But then I flush the system which can take up to five hours, use the best chemicals, cement seal anything that needs it. Carefully match and repoint brickwork where needed, repaint the wall behind and around the boiler, carefully performance check and commission the boiler system.

Doing a job properly takes time and I dont rush or bodge anything! I dont like doing a bad job as thats not enjoyable for me.

I expect you to read the forum instead of asking the same old questions and getting text books written specially for you when all the answers are in the FAQ and can be found in numerous postings.

Its irrelevant who likes or dislikes certain makes. There must somewhere be someone who likes Saunier Duval boilers for example.

Tony

 

[DP]

OP, have you considered a combi for kitchen/ utility and cylinder for supply of hot water elsewhere?