To cut or not to cut? - that is the question...

[advisewelcome]

Hiya, someone has probably asked this question somewhere, but darned if I can find it when I need it.

Want to cut out a loft hatch hole in a new place on the ceiling to make it easier to access the loft.


Basically, can I cut this timber (think its a joist maybe) and so I can make the hole approx. as as indicated in the blue?

I would cut it where the red arrows are in order to make a hole indicated in the blue frame.

Is there anything I put in, to support this joist and then cut it? A frame around the loft hatch which connects it to the joists?

Those joists are about 5cm x10cm and they are about 40cm apart, seem to lying on the top of the brick walls which has that large beam as well that we are standing on.


This is without the blue frame and I assume that is just plasterboard ceiling I could cut through?

I am not touching any of the main beams or strut thingymajigs. Pic below of the loft area and where the new hatch hole would be in marked up in blue frame:

Video of the whole roof area:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rf3YpuXPKNHAC6Dt9


Is there a standard size for large hatch hole (blue square which means I can buy a hatch hole cover off-shelf)? About 80cm x 80cm

Would welcome any insights as love to crack on with it tonight or tomorrow.

I assume I have to think about the space behind the loft hatch if a ladder is too be fitted on the hatch as well?

 

[cdbe]

Google joist trimming - this is how you create the opening. I would moved it a bit away from the wall as you'll need to fit a trim (like a door architrave) round the opening. Size of opening will be determined by the size of hatch you've bought or made.

 

[advisewelcome]

Thanks. Spotted this which you think is a reasonable guide?:
https://www.diydata.com/carpentry/loft-hatch/loft-hatch.php

I guess I use normal untreated soft woods in order to support and trim up the joist?

Was heading in the direction of creating my own hatch cover if I need about 80-85cm sq hole and fit my own ladders?

But am finding cheapo sliding ladders sets in seem to have 100cm+ space requirements behind the loft hole.

Just wondering if there are any cheap and cheerful ladder options that would not need 70-80cm length behind the hatch to store? - as there is wall there .

 

[JohnD]

That would make it an extremely short ladder.

Your new hole does not have to be in the same place as your old hole. Further away from the wall will be easier for you to get through, and lift boards or rolls of insulation. The loft is so filthy that I presume the roof is unfelted. You can clean it if you like. Are the ceilings plasterboard or L&P?

Fix the trimmers to the joists before you cut anything. IMO the trimmers should be at least as big as the joists. Your link seems to suggest something flimsy.

I like to treat loft timbers with wood preserver. Round the hatch is a popular place for woodworm as they like the warmth that leaks up.

Drill pilot holes and use large coach screws, which you tighten with a spanner.

 

[big-all]

Thanks. Spotted this which you think is a reasonable guide?:
https://www.diydata.com/carpentry/loft-hatch/loft-hatch.php

I guess I use normal untreated soft woods in order to support and trim up the joist?

Was heading in the direction of creating my own hatch cover if I need about 80-85cm sq hole and fit my own ladders?

But am finding cheapo sliding ladders sets in seem to have 100cm+ space requirements behind the loft hole.
View attachment 340777


Just wondering if there are any cheap and cheerful ladder options that would not need 70-80cm length behind the hatch to store? - as there is wall there .

you need to look at the mechanics
floor to ceiling perhaps 2.4 at a shallow angle perhaps 2.5 with perhaps 250- 350mm overlap per section
so a a tripple 1m ladder will work as 2.4+600 [2 overlaps is 3m so 3 sections ]
you then go for say 800 you will be perhaps 5 sections that will drastically restrict the actuall opening

 

[advisewelcome]

That would make it an extremely short ladder.

Your new hole does not have to be in the same place as your old hole. Further away from the wall will be easier for you to get through, and lift boards or rolls of insulation. The loft is so filthy that I presume the roof is unfelted. You can clean it if you like. Are the ceilings plasterboard or L&P?

Thanks. Its a totally new hole - the other loft hole is in a different inconvenient space. Yes its an old 1940s semi and probs unfelted. I think the ceiling is plasterboard but not sure if I can tell easily as quite dirty. Not sure if L&P have to do something when cutting through it? Will just do the joist trimming first and then make the hole when ready to fit the ladder.

That new hatch space is in front of a large struty-hanger-roofy-ma-jig thing but about 80cm away from the neighbour wall with good headspace. Its the right location as might extend later and put in a perm stairs there.

Fix the trimmers to the joists before you cut anything. IMO the trimmers should be at least as big as the joists. Your link seems to suggest something flimsy.

https://www.diydata.com/carpentry/loft-hatch/loft-hatch.php - yep your right - they are suggesting 25 x 75mm but the current joists are 50 x 100mm.

I like to treat loft timbers with wood preserver. Round the hatch is a popular place for woodworm as they like the warmth that leaks up.

Drill pilot holes and use large coach screws, which you tighten with a spanner.

Thanks. Good suggestion.

The other option is to fit the ladders 90 degree in the other direction where there is plenty of space behind the hatch. I suppose the behind the hatch areas has to have floor ply for the ladder or its fittings to connect to?

Watcha' reckon? If I use that space and just get on with the joist trimming, you reckon I could find a set of sliding ladders (wiv out having to buy flimsy concertina ladders)?

 

[advisewelcome]

you need to look at the mechanics
floor to ceiling perhaps 2.4 at a shallow angle perhaps 2.5 with perhaps 250- 350mm overlap per section
so a a tripple 1m ladder will work as 2.4+600 [2 overlaps is 3m so 3 sections ]
you then go for say 800 you will be perhaps 5 sections that will drastically restrict the actuall opening

Hi, I think u giving great info here, but I am bit of a ficko' to understand it.

The bedroom below is 255cm in height.

Think you're saying I would need 5 section ladder and that will not work? Not sure how that effects the hatch opening size.

Anyways, if I trim up the joints would I eventually find something?- or is the best bet to just fit the ladder 90 degree in the other direction?

(In which case I guess I should make a 80 x 80cm hole so I could fit the ladder either way - and hope that 80cm sq hole isn't mad size?)


((... actually I could go ahead and trim things up to 80cm x 80cm space - and if I need to change the size of the hole can just fit another piece of trim laters when I get the ladders? make sense?))

 

[JohnD]

My ladder is fixed to the trimmer, which obviously has to be substantial.

 

[blup]

You're right next to a structural wall, bear in mind you might want decorative trim around the hatch. You will also lose space when doubling up the the trimmers, so design that in

 

[big-all]

i have a scissor loft ladder not cheap but fits through my 600mm hatch

 

[advisewelcome]

i have a scissor loft ladder not cheap but fits through my 600mm hatch

https://www.roofwindows4you.co.uk/product-category/loft-ladders/scissor-loft-ladders/

Bit cheaper here...

https://www.laddersandscaffoldtowers.co.uk/acatalog/Concertina-Loft-Ladders.html
...but no handle and not substantial as want to lug flooring things up there

Seems like telescopic is out there, but no handle
https://www.laddersandscaffoldtowers.co.uk/acatalog/Deluxe-Telescopic-Loft-Ladder.html

Looking like will have to stick to normal ladders.

They chew up space in the loft hole when open, so I reckon 80 x 80cm is the right size for loft hole?

If I am making own hatch board - watcha reckon - just a bit of white conti board?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Just wondering if there are any cheap and cheerful ladder options that would not need 70-80cm length behind the hatch to store? - as there is wall there .

Avoid the ladders, where the sliding joint uses a plastic joint component. I had two section one, and the plastic soon failed. My present one, is three section, the sections have sliding sprung bolts, which drop into place positively, at each side, when the ladder is extended. When the ladder is closed, and pushed up, it has a second bracket connected to the upper end, to guide it into place in the loft - so the ladder always describes the same arc, as it is pushed up.

In use, it feels very firm.

 

[advisewelcome]

You're right next to a structural wall, bear in mind you might want decorative trim around the hatch. You will also lose space when doubling up the the trimmers, so design that in

Ta.

So if I have 70-80cm behind the hatch to the structural wall, could I just fit the ladders and push them back - and they will just hit the wall and stop there, or does the locking mechanism absolutely need to be able to go all the way back in order to be securely retracted and in order for the loft hatch to close?

Do I have to have a loft floor behind the hatch where the ladders sit when retracted, are they relying on some fittings to that floor?

Do all the ladders always come with something to pull them down or do you have to stand on something to reach the ladders to pull them down? need a step ladder to get to the ladders??!

... questions... questions.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Do I have to have a loft floor behind the hatch where the ladders sit when retracted, are they relying on some fittings to that floor?

As said my present ladder, has a pair of sliding pivoted hinges, on the edge of the loft opening. The top end of the ladder has a hinged bracket, which is hinged where it meets the top of the ladder, and where it fixes to the loft floor - that forces the ladder to follow a fixed arc, as it is pushed up out of the way.

Remember, your ladder will need space above, when you push it up, pull it down. It needs to be carefully planned.

Do all the ladders always come with something to pull them down or do you have to stand on something to reach the ladders to pull them down? need a step ladder to get to the ladders??!

Generally, yes. My last one came with an L shaped tube, to hook the ladder down. My present one has a tube with a plastic hook on the end, which serves to hook the ladder down, and to release the door catch. It came with a door catch.

Avoid the push the hatch to latch, push to release types, they jam.

 

[advisewelcome]

You're right next to a structural wall, bear in mind you might want decorative trim around the hatch. You will also lose space when doubling up the the trimmers, so design that in

Ta. But any reason I need to double up hatch hole surrounding joists? I thought there was only a single similar joist needed to surround the hatch hole as per https://www.diydata.com/carpentry/loft-hatch/loft-hatch.php?