Under Floor Heating

[Onetap]

Chris Nash@JG technical wrote

The UFH mixing valve has a minimum working pressure of 0.2 BAR which is 2 metres in terms of static head. Therefore the hot port of the mixing valve will require this minimum amount to blend and perform correctly

So you say.

It is a shame that you and/or he didn't actually understand it before pouring derision on a simple design feature that has been used sucessfully for 50+ years.

The static pressure on the hot port is of no relevance. You would need the valve Cv, the differential pressure across the valve at a given flow rate, to calculate the valve authority for a specific application. That is obviously beyond your limited abilities, so why don't you go and read some books and come back when you know what you're talking about.

The crossover header obviously works, or Spirax wouldn't show it in their installation manual. Do try to show us why it doesn't work.

There are some emoticons for you.

 

[Rhondo]

So you say

No Chris Nash@JG technical says.

Do try to show us why it doesn't work

Spirax are obviously referring to a valve that regulates on both ports.
With a single port regulating tmv the flow will simply follow the path of least resistance through the cold port diminishing any possibility of hot flow entering the ufh loops.

 

[Onetap]

No Chris Nash@JG technical says.

You say so.

Spirax are obviously referring to a valve that regulates on both ports.
With a single port regulating tmv the flow will simply follow the path of least resistance through the cold port diminishing any possibility of hot flow entering the ufh loops.

The valve that Norco mentioned and the link he posted was a Honeywell Sparcomix TMV. You think Spirax are another manufacturer?

The name Spirax Sparco, one of the huge manufacturers in the heating & steam valve global market, obviously means nothing to you.

http://www.spiraxsarco.com/uk/

The Spirax link posted by Norco refers to his TMV valve and clearly it does work on a low loss header installation.

You've made an idiot of yourself again there; not too hard to achieve.

 

[Rhondo]

You say so

No Chris Nash@JG technical says so.
Try contacting him if you want confirmation and then perhaps you might be so kind as to remove your accusation of "liar".

Since you're obviously having difficulty accepting that some tmv's have unequal symmetry and only regulate on one port and have to rely on internet links to back up your argument, I suggest you get your hands on one and put the papers and internet links to one side.
You've obviously never fitted one.

and clearly it does work on a low loss header installation

No it doesn't damn well work.
Not everything you read on paper equates to it working in reality.
And I know because I've tried it. The cross over header balances the circuit resistances. Valve authority "unity". Correct?

With a tmv throttling the hot port only and with the close tolerances of the valve seating mechanism, you get priority flow through the cold port.
This means "IT WON'T WORK. Get it?
And I tried a regulating valve on the cold port.
But you obviously think I'm lying.

 

[Onetap]

No Chris Nash@JG technical says so.
Try contacting him if you want confirmation and then perhaps you might be so kind as to remove your accusation of "liar".

Don’t you think you be better advised to learn some plumbing fundamentals, how to make a compression joint for example, rather than try to pick a fight about 3-port mixing valves?

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=247447&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Naw... that's wrong. The ptfe reduces friction thus the olive takes a tighter grip from a lower torque. All threads should be ptfe'd.

All threads should be ptfe'd.

get the f*c should they.

it is the mark of DIY to see it round the threads of a compression fitting as opposed to the olive, it smacks of someone who has no idea what they are doing,

Tape roond the threads is a fantastic and invaluable indicator that the installer knew shaft-all about plumbing.
When my old man was training me he wouldn't even answer me when I asked if I could use it to help my joints be leak-free. Look of contempt was all I got.

Kirkgas had your cards marked; you know bog all about plumbing.

No Chris Nash@JG technical says so.
Try contacting him if you want confirmation and then perhaps you might be so kind as to remove your accusation of "liar".

Why would I ask a manufacturer of plastic tube for advice about a TMV that they buy in? Go and ask for the manufacturer’s data sheet, similar to the one Norco posted, with Cv values. You have probably misunderstood what you were told.

And I know because I've tried it. The cross over header balances the circuit resistances.

Liar. Where would you have tried it? You can’t even do compression joints. You’d never heard of a cross over header, low loss headers or valve authority until I posted the phrases.

Valve authority "unity". Correct?

Well congratulations on your attempt to do some homework and finding a few pages of the CIBSE guide on Google. Too little and too late; I’m afraid you have misunderstood it. You didn’t understand ‘unity’ so you posted the big words instead of using the simple English phrase.

And no, valve authority is rarely ‘unity’.

And the cross over header does not ‘balance the circuit resistances’.

 

[Onetap]

Since you're obviously having difficulty accepting that some tmv's have unequal symmetry and only regulate on one port and have to rely on internet links to back up your argument, I suggest you get your hands on one and put the papers and internet links to one side.
You've obviously never fitted one.

Since you seem to have found parts of the CIBSE Guide H on Google and have read and misunderstood some of it, I would suggest that you refer to Figures 3.14 and 3.15 which show the flow rate/spindle position for symmetrical and asymmetrical 3-port valves respectively.

In both cases, you will note that the load flow increases from 0 to 100% as the by-pass flow decreases from 100 to 0%. Both symmetrical and asymmetrical 3-port mixing valves control the 2 inlet ports inversely to each other.

These graphs do not apply to the valve that Norco described. It has no seat on the cold port and cannot control or shut off the flow through the cold port. It is not an asymmetrical 3-port valve, as you think. It is not a 3-port valve. It seems most like the 2-port thermostatic injection mixing valves shown in the Rehau brochure.

I have never seen such a valve and neither has the author of the CIBSE guide. I don't use junk. Anyone contaminating one of my projects with some cheap garbage like that would have it rammed up his hairy orifice and soldered to his prostate.

You've bought one, have you?

 

[Rhondo]

It is not a 3-port valve.

Then why has it got three ports?

It seems most like the 2-port thermostatic injection mixing valves

Yeah right, I think you need glasses son.

in the Rehau brochure

Guessing now are we?

I have never seen such a valve

Check the brochures.

Anyone contaminating one of my projects with some cheap garbage like that

Not everyone might find them cheap and you've confirmed my suspicions that you've never fitted one let alone seen one apart from
glossy brochures and yet have the gall to tell people it will work.

 

[Onetap]

It is not a 3-port valve.

Then why has it got three ports?

To catch the DIY idiots who don't know what a 3-port mixing valve should do.
Did you buy one?
Can I interest you in a timeshare investment?
Fool.

It has two inlet ports but doesn't control one of them. What difference is this to a 2-port valve with a tee adjacent to the outlet port?

in the Rehau brochure

Guessing now are we?

See link to Rehau manual posted on the previous page.

Not everyone might find them cheap and you've confirmed my suspicions that you've never fitted one let alone seen one apart from glossy brochures and yet have the gall to tell people it will work.

No, you paid a lot for it. You were done because you don't know what you're doing. You paid for a 3-port mixing valve and got a valve on which one port does nothing. Fool.

It will work on a cross over header. It just won't work very well in any installation because it's junk.

You haven't mentioned the CIBSE Guide re asymmetrical 3-port valves.
Fool.

 

[Rhondo]

It will work on a cross over header

I know different.
It won't work.

It just won't work very well

You're getting there and should soon be foisting yourself unto this.....

 

[Onetap]

I know different.
:

No, you don't. You know nothing about control valves, except for what you've Googled recently.
Tell us why you put PTFE tape on compression fitting threads again.

And I tried a regulating valve on the cold port.

Fit a 2-port thermostatic valve with a remote sensing bulb, to the TMV cold inlet port, clamp the capilliary bulb to the TMV outlet pipe and insulate over it. Set the 2-port valve and the TMV to the same temperature. It should work then.

The assembley has a special name. It is a 3-port mixing valve.

 

[Rhondo]

You know nothing about control valves

I know enough.
Industrial/commercial (heating-cooling) valve stations? I've built em. Big and complex.
I also know how to convert a Myson n/c valve to n/o in less than 10 minutes.........
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1770120#1770120

 

[Onetap]

I know enough.
Industrial/commercial (heating-cooling) valve stations? I've built em. Big and complex.
I also know how to convert a Myson n/c valve to n/o in less than 10 minutes.........
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1770120#1770120[/QUOTE]

Wow.
That is superb.
I cannot tell you how grateful I am to you for posting that link.

I had long thought that the Americans had completely outclassed the UK in intenet stupidity. Cometh the hour, cometh the man and here is Little Britain's representative punching above his weight in the Olympic Heavyweight Stupidity category. It brings a tear to my eye; makes one proud to be British.

To demonstrate your expertise with industrial/commercial valve stations, you post photos of a knackered domestic zone valve you've butchered? You seriously plan to fit that on a solid fuel system? A "huge solid fuel boiler integrated with an oil boiler", no less? "Customer is delighted."

Will your PLI tolerate that? Are you HETAS registered? Why didn't you just fit a Honeywell zone valve, for which NO actuators are available?
Have Building Control been notified?

There is no customer. You're a DIY clown butchering your own heating system and you have no clue about what you are doing.

"The oil boiler is rather partial to stealing a huge chunk of the flow from the sf boiler resulting in the sf boiler" overheating

Does the solid fuel boiler get hot when the oil boiler is on, sending a thermal plume of hot air up the chimney? If you've got UFH on it, how do you prevent back-end corrosion? The designer was an idiot. You should have sacked him. See above re hydraulic separation of circuits. I'm sure you have come across the Dunsley neutralizer in your Googling, which is a low loss header or a small thermal store (same thing, for this application). The same idiot is now compounding his mistakes by fitting bodged valves on a solid fuel system.

I'd suggest you don't bother with the swing-check valve. Done it, ineffective. I think I may have posted details on here for some other thread.

I couldn't care less about you working on your own system.
It is insulting that you should posture as a tradesman, when clearly you are not, and then make ignorant comments about people who have worked in this line for decades and post on this forum to assist others.

 

[Rhondo]

and then make ignorant comments about people who have worked in this line for decades and post on this forum to assist others

Yeah and on your first post on this thread you got it wrong and then go on to make "liar" accusations.

Chris Nash@JG technical wrote

The UFH mixing valve has a minimum working pressure of 0.2 BAR which is 2 metres in terms of static head. Therefore the hot port of the mixing valve will require this minimum amount to blend and perform correctly

You were trying to be clever with yer cross over header, yet have never came across a simple one port regulating tmv which requires a primary circulator to operate effectively and they work fine when coupled up correctly.
You posted duff advice. Tough.
Live with it.
FOOL.

 

[Onetap]

You were trying to be clever with yer cross over header, yet have never came across a simple one port regulating tmv which requires a primary circulator to operate effectively and they work fine when coupled up correctly.
You posted duff advice. Tough.
Live with it.
FOOL.

Here is the link to the TMV MANUFACTURER'S installation instructions posted by Norcon earlier in this thread.

Honeywell Sparco.
I recognised it in the last link you gave. It definately only regulates the hot port. With tight shut off when you close it down to 1 on the 1-10 knob setting.
http://tinyurl.com/33erez6

Here is the TMV MANUFACTURER'S diagram, figure 2.3 from the above link, showing the schematic for their TMV in a low loss/cross-over header installation, i.e., negligible pressure loss between H&C ports.

So that definitively answers that one, it would work in a cross over header installation. Sorted. You should apologise.

As I said, it would be better to work from the TMV MANUFACTURER'S data sheet, rather than the recommendations of someone who doesn't understand it.

Oh, did I mention? You're a liar. You lied about being a contractor and about having installed such a valve in a primary/secondary application which, incidentally, you'd never heard of.

You didn't address any of the queries I raised about your idiosyncratic installation.

Why would anyone buy a "one-port" 3-port valve?

 

[Rhondo]

it would work in a cross over header installation

No it won't. Stick to your brochures and internet links as you've obviously never installed one.
Muppet.
You're just getting desperate now because you posted duff advice and think everything works as you read it on google.
Hilarious.