URGENT-Is the boiler flu too close.

[Trundles Tricks]

I have to admit to being quite staggered by some of the replies from what appears to be experienced engineers on this subject.


I would like to make a couple of observations.


1) The thought that so many of you feel that it is acceptable to site a flue terminal that immediately causes an entrant of fumes into a bedroom in an adjoining property (or any room for that matter) is nothing short of staggering.

I have refused to site any number of boilers where the terminal would satisfy siting dimensions because it was quite clear to me that there would be obvious reentry problems to other rooms, whether in the same house or next door.

Quoting 300mm from windows etc is ludicrous in the extreme in these situations in my opinion and a total cop out by the installing engineers.


In effect you are saying to a neighbour expressing quite reasonable concerns "Tough Luck! You'll just have to put up with fumes in your bedroom from now on"

Quite unbelievable to be honest with you!


2) Whilst being very impressed (yet also baffled) with the assurances and technical workings out from some of the earlier posts about total dilution of Products Of Combustion after working out open space volumes and oxygen levels.

Am I the only one who has taken note of CORGI drawing attention to the number of deaths already caused by the re-entry of fumes from condensing boilers whose terminals were correctly sited according to regs but still allowed re-entry as in this case?

CORGI pointed out that if a condensing boilers gas valve fell out of calibration by even a fraction outside the correct parameters stated by the manufacturer the CO parts per million readings increase by thousands of times.

Our local CORGI guy told me of one that whacked up to 39,000 parts per million before reentering a house and causing a fatality even though the terminal was sited as per recommended clearance guides.


My company probably services somewhere in the region of 20,000 boilers per Annam and are already coming a number of condensing boilers whose CO PPm reading have gone off the scale when the manufacturers Co ratio% parameters are exceeded.



I feel that the original poster has quite reasonable causes for concern regarding the safety of his family and would urge him to take any action that he feels that he can in order to have this boiler isolated until a satisfactory flue option can be implemented.


As for those of you that feel that it is quite acceptable for next doors boiler fumes to drift into others properties because the POC are probably well diluted then quite frankly words fail me!!

 

[mattylad]

Well said TT...

 

[namsag]

Trundle tricks i must say your comments about deaths got me thinking oh sh#te sounded quite scary.

But hey actually check up on it and low and behold there is no deaths never mind several.

What there has been is 7 incidents (from 5 million boilers) NO mention of deaths over 3 years where WRONGLY installed flues and WRONGLY adjust gas valves where to blame.
Straight from the corgi website

So by the sound of it ,its not just a wrongly positioned flue (ie not to regs) it also needs the gas valve to have been played with by someone not knowing what they are doing

So don`t know what urban myth your inspector is telling you but if it was CORRECTLY installed boilers the regs would soon change

 

[kirkgas]

i have always taken great care and pride in my work and always fit appliances to the current regs, standards and more importantly MI's, therefore if MI states minimum 300mm clearances from flue to opening i am happy it is safe to do so, so i hope TT is not concerned with anything i have said because i would NEVER put anyone at risk, obviously none of us have seen inside this property so i don't know if there are alternative cost effective positions for the boiler or why it was fitted there, but remeber the installation has to be done cost effectively for the customer ie installation and running costs minimum hot water runs and as has been discussed to death here this boiler COMPLIES with the regs so it must be ok, we are commenting on what we think is happening inside but we don't know, remember this job has been surveyed and then instaled by qualified experienced people ( i assume again!) then hopefully the install is done within these perameters, realistically WHAT IS THE RISK to next door of poisoning or is it just nuisence value (which i accept is a real problem for the OP)

 

[heatingman]

My 2ps worth. I have to agree with a lot of what Trundle states. The boiler may well be installed to all requirements, except for the nuisance factor. Any boiler I site, the neighbours are always taken into consideration. I would not be happy with someones plume/discharge blowing across my window. The cost off and work involved in fitting a plume management kit is negligable in the overall job. Don't the MI's usually state that due consideration should be taken of plume/effects when siting a flue. Is the general opinion "it satisfies the regs so bu**er off & stop moaning"

 

[sambotc]

How come we are quite happy to 'work to manufacturers instructions' for every other issue but not flues. Every aspect of the job is detailed in the MI, if they ask you to stick a banana in your eye and stand on one leg whilst hanging the boiler, that is how it should be done according to CORGI, ACS etc

Whilst i understand plume can be a nuisance to people, especially neighbours as there is no benefit to them about wether or not there next door neighbours are warm this winter, it is on the whole safe.

The only differance between this flue exhaust and one of 10-15 years ago is that it is VISIBLE which has already been explained as water vapour.

I see flues within 10mm of boundaries which have been running for years without question, now all of a sudden water vapour can be seen and it's dangerous. (and further away of course to compl with MI)

On a cold day plume can travel many metres and cause a nuisance. The problem is most houses have many windows!

So what is the answer, take all condensing flue's vertical? It's an idea which so i've heard the spanish have now implemented but can you imagine running flue pipes though people bedrooms and such?

The only answer is compromise between a 'change' an 'inconvenience' and truly a 'nuisance'.

Blame whoever decided condensing boilers were the way forward, not the installers who are working to the book. 5-6 years ago before it was a mandatory requirement we fitted condensing boilers to every flat in a tower block. 2 weeks later we had to rip them all out because the whole place was smoked out!

Back to the original post:
The realistic option would be to speak to the installer first and see if you can come to reasonable comprimise, which i suspect could be as simple as removing the deflector.

Sam

 

[Corgigrouch]

I too think that it looks to be a little too close to the boundary, though I'm sure that it has been fitted to the last millimeter.... Has anyone yet established the purpose of the overflow pipe yet?

I for one would not be happy with the boiler where it is as although I'm sure that it meets every requirement, it still in a dopey place... The boiler appears to be in a bedroom... Ideals are not exactly silent, and the noise from the flue in the Summer when the window is open will be terrible.. also, is there not some building reg that says that the flue must not discharge over a boundary? I'm sure that 2.3 metres comes into this somewhere.... The obvious solution is to have a straight flue, aim it upwards or best option is to pipe it up, round the soffits and facias and discharge vertically, though I'm not too sure if this is possible with an Ideal

 

[Agile]

I am as sensitive to anyone to any real risk and many installers see me as veing over critical.

However, I am surprised that no one has asked why the OP is apparently living with his bedroom window open when the temperature has been below 4° for the last few days! Tonight , in my local area, its actuallt 8.9 so its a rather mild outside!

Before anyone starts about the summer, remember that a combi is only used occasionally for water heating and not near constantly for CH during summer months when windows might be open!

Much of this OP's complaint is because he can "see" the POC !

Tony

 

[jingo123]

Thanks Trundles Tricks, I was also surpised and shocked at some of the views, shame more fitters don't think like you and a few others on here. It would have required very little extra work, to do it right in the first place.

I also agree that simply using the 30cm rule is just an excuse, one does have to ask whether all the people who think that it is ok would be happy to put their kids in such a room. Or would be so understanding to have such a vent next to their bedroom windows. Or have their elderly family members sleep in such a room.

Good to know people like you are out there.

Not that it solves my problem

 

[namsag]

Its good to see you are now an expert and can decide the 30cm rule is wrong when people far more clever than you and me in various countries have done extensive test under the worst fault conditions avialabe and proved it is perfectly ok and that measurement will have extra distance built into it.

It has been done right no matter what you keep wanting to believe.

, More people have told you that it is perfectly safe and that its only water /co2 its not toxic NO ONE has died from it as trundle trick wrongly said.
But you have decided in your on head that you want it to be wrong.

Yes i would have no worries at all about anyone in a bedroom from install pictures you have put.

Do you or any member of your household smoke by an chance

 

[Trundles Tricks]

Trundle tricks i must say your comments about deaths got me thinking oh sh#te sounded quite scary.

But hey actually check up on it and low and behold there is no deaths never mind several.

What there has been is 7 incidents (from 5 million boilers) NO mention of deaths over 3 years where WRONGLY installed flues and WRONGLY adjust gas valves where to blame.
Straight from the corgi website

So by the sound of it ,its not just a wrongly positioned flue (ie not to regs) it also needs the gas valve to have been played with by someone not knowing what they are doing

So don`t know what urban myth your inspector is telling you but if it was CORRECTLY installed boilers the regs would soon change

Thats strange because the inspector later sent us an Email asking us not to broadcast what he had told us because it was to be the subject of a press release.

He definitely mentioned 7 deaths and he did not say anything about wrongly sited terminal positions causing these deaths and neither did I.


He mentioned that most were flues apart in loft spaces whether caused by insufficient clipping or the real menace of holiday suitcases and Xmas trees being bunged into the loft from the hatch by householders flying across the loft space and smacking into flues weheter adequately supported or not.

He definitely without any trace of doubt mentioned one case where re-entry fumes from a horizontal terminal that was sited to allowed dimensions had killed someone, and that this and a number of the 'Apart' flues consequences had been made worse by out of calibration gas valves causing massive escalation of CO PPM readings.



As regards your people mucking about with gas valves comment, as I mentioned we are coming across a number of Condensing boilers with their CO2% ratios slightly out and their CO reading going off the scale as a result.

This is not as a result of anybody mucking about with the gas valves as in many cases we fitted the boilers and they are only maintained by us and are picked up on our annual service.

Some can be recalibrated and some require a new gas valve to cure the problem, we have had 10,500ppm and 5,000+PPm off boilers just recently, and a number of others shooting off the scale too big too measure on our analysers.


Just a warning also we have had a number now of Gloworm 30cxis where the original silicone combustion chamber seals have just 'Disappeared' through heat damage.

As many here will know there is a replacement graphite seal adaption for these boilers, we have had at least 5 of these boilers seals having disintegrated and the resultant escaping heat buckling the combustion chamber front plate thus allowing POC in vast quantities to escape into the outer chamber melting other components and escaping into the house in vast quantities.

I'd suggest that engineers are more vigilant when checking condensing boilers perhaps more than some have been previously.

 

[Agile]

We often have this complain on these forums and sometimes I have to go and advise on boiler installations.

There is a particular breed of people who rather than get on with their life prefer to sit at their open windows during winter just so that they can complain about their next door neighbours activities.

I know someone whose neighbours complained about him playing his music too loudly during the evening. He pointed out that their baby cried loudly at all times of day and night.

Apparently, people are not allowed to play music loudly but they are allowed to have babies which disturb all the neighbours!

Tony

 

[Trundles Tricks]

Just out of interest and I think that it was mentioned further up the topic but don't I recall that some time ago it was the general impression that if a Condensing boiler was fitted and the pluming from that boiler poured over into another property then the adjoining property owner had the legal right to demand resiting.

Or did I dream that?

 

[simond]

At the end of the day the flue clearances have been followed.

If our difficult poster who wants retribution wants to have the flue moved, they will need to show that the siting of the flue outlet results in the POC coming into or past their property. Simple. If they can't demonstrate the problem, they have no case.

As for the Tricks chap, the Glowworm/Vaillant seal problem is very old news, and any boilers registered with the Vaillant Group would have been fixed over a year ago. The talk of deaths etc from condensing flue outlets is just sensationalist rubbish and undermines the credibility of this whole forum, not just the poster himself.

 

[namsag]

So trundle what we are now meant to believe is CORGI have misled us on there website that is there for all to see. Have a look youself and see what it says not a death mentioned and they say wrong sited flues not customer damaged.

They know people are dying but tell people to keep it a secret why would they do that and allow more people to possibly die.

Get real the kick up would be horrendous.

And as for out of sync gas valves giving out CO . We know that happens its called wear and tear.
What do you think the research centres do , they test the boilers in absolute worst case scenario with tighter clearences than any of the regs.To make sure peoples lives are not put at risk.By an everyday occurence

The gloworm/vailllant case seal problem is well known and should have been dealt with under a national recall but loads will slip through but that has nothing to do with this topic