Using existing galvanized steel conduit

It would be 25m to the consumer unit from the garage, it's only 10m from the garage to the downstairs ring - so I guess the volt drop for a 13A spurred socket and a 5A light fitting would be fine.
The hassle associated with putting in underground supplies to a garage or outhouse is such that it really makes sense to consider 'future proofing'. Even if your present electricity needs in the garage may be very modest, that could change, and a future owner of the property might also have greater needs. Also note that, regulations-wise, the voltage drop has to be acceptable in terms of the 'design current' of the circuit usually the rating of the fuse or MCB supplying it), even if your present usage is well below that level.
I understood, perhaps wrongly, that the steel conduit would need to be earthed.
Any metal conduit containing electrical cable needs to be earthed.

You really need to discuss these issues with your electrician.

Kind Regards, John
 
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Hi John,

I will discuss with the electrician I just want to be prepared with some knowledge.

I agree digging up the garden would be a hassle and as such laying a new SWA cable would be best but there is already a 2.5mm T+E cable running through a steel conduit, so if I use this again I would not need to dig anything up.
 
I will discuss with the electrician I just want to be prepared with some knowledge. I agree digging up the garden would be a hassle and as such laying a new SWA cable would be best but there is already a 2.5mm T+E cable running through a steel conduit, so if I use this again I would not need to dig anything up.
Maybe we are talking slightly at cross purposes. I was talking about a situation in which you were digging a trench, and was suggesting that it would then be worthwhile to put in a cable well in excess of the present needs. The difference in price for the cable would not be that great, but it could save you (or future owners of the property) the hassle of having to dig again.

If you were contemplating using the existing 2.5mm² cable, and your electrician confirmed that it tested OK, then, voltage drop wise (given that you will have lighting, which imposes a maximum VD of 3%, namely 6.9V), that would allow up to about 15A - so, I suppose, probably OK for your present needs (fed via a 13A fuse). However, as has been said, there are considerations of earthing in the garage which may alter all this when your electrician considers it. Are there any gas or water pipes in the garage, and does the garage have any structural metalwork?

Kind Regards, John
 
Hi Eric,

It would be 25m to the consumer unit from the garage, it's only 10m from the garage to the downstairs ring - so I guess the volt drop for a 13A spurred socket and a 5A light fitting would be fine.
A ring can be (When RCD protected to BS7671:2008) up to 106 meters long and taking a fused spur from the ring right next to the consumer unit would allow the spur to be nearly 50 meters but taken from the centre of a 106 meter ring it would be zero as the allowance has already been used up.

Unlikely it will be centre of a 106 meter ring but to work out the volt drop permitted you would need first to work out the volt drop at the point of the spur.

The problem is you can't read it direct one has to work it out from the impedance (resistance with AC circuit is called impedance) at the point where the spur is taken minus the impedance at the consumer unit. Or one could measure the resistance with a low ohm meter but with two conductors of unequal length that is not easy either.

So if for example the volt drop at the point where you are taking spur from was 9 volt then you could just manage the 10 meter run but that includes wiring used in the garage. So the impedance would need to be less than 1 ohm approx for the supply to be usable.

There is also the rule that any appliance over 2kW should have a dedicated supply so if the shed is considered as an appliance then it would need to be fused to 7A not 13A we come back to the electrician doing the work and how close to the rules he wants to go.

So you would need to find the electrician first and ask him what he would accept.
I understood, perhaps wrongly, that the steel conduit would need to be earthed.

Yes the steel conduit would need to be bonded and this leaves us with a problem. With SWA the plastic coating allows bonding one end only and using a TT supply. But with conduit we would need to bond both to house and the shed and this raises a problem where the house is fed from a TN supply.

I would be interested to hear what others have to say on this as an interesting problem which until your post I had not considered. I would think the house would have to be TT to be able to connect the conduit to the earth system without major erosion problems. The diodes could help but the real point is you should not really use un-coated conduit underground. I spend some time on pipe lines and the rapping of the pipe with an insulating material and the testing of the rap with the Spy detectors which used 2500 volts was a major part of the work. Even then there were still huge sacrificial anodes buried and a cathodic protection generator to stop erosion.

I would expect if you tried to move the cable in the conduit you will find it is solid. And if you dig up the conduit you will find huge holes in it. The failure of the conduit could damage the cable if the conduit was in concrete then not so much of a problem but in earth I would expect if you try to do an insulation resistance test and an earth continuity test it will fail.

Even if it does not fail then likely it will in the future. So I would say a lift and swap for SWA is required even if taking the supply from the original point. There is little to stop one cleating the SWA to the house wall so once you reach house it does not need to be below ground. Nor does it have to go inside the house. It can follow the wall around the house.

So I would renew with SWA cable and I think most would recommend the same.
 
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So if for example the volt drop at the point where you are taking spur from was 9 volt then you could just manage the 10 meter run but that includes wiring used in the garage. So the impedance would need to be less than 1 ohm approx for the supply to be usable.
My understanding is that there is going to be lighting in the garage - so that, theoretically, the maximum VD would be 3%, not 5%.
There is also the rule that any appliance over 2kW should have a dedicated supply so if the shed is considered as an appliance then it would need to be fused to 7A not 13A we come back to the electrician doing the work and how close to the rules he wants to go.
I've never thought of regarding a garage as an appliance! If you really believed in that approach, the 7A (or whatever) fuse limit would apply to all fused spurs, wouldn't it?!
With SWA the plastic coating allows bonding one end only and using a TT supply. But with conduit we would need to bond both to house and the shed and this raises a problem where the house is fed from a TN supply.
True, but exactly the same problem arises if (as is not uncommon), the same system of metal water pipes serves both the house and a garage/outhouse. There is then no way of avoiding bonding at both ends, which effectively precludes having the garage/outhouse earthing 'isolated' from the house's earth, even if the latter is TN.
I would expect if you tried to move the cable in the conduit you will find it is solid. And if you dig up the conduit you will find huge holes in it.
You say that, and I can understand the theoretical basis, but is not the country still teeming with buried 'bare' galvanised water and gas pipes, many of which are bonded to TN earths, and many of which have been there for best part of 100 years (more in the case of my house, and others) without failing?
So I would renew with SWA cable and I think most would recommend the same.
As you say, I don't think many would disagree with that.

Kind Regards, John
 
HI John / Eric

Thanks for all the advise, I need to consider quite a few things before I speak to the sparks again, which is why I wanted to ask in the first place.

If I do cave and get the spade out, to go with the SWA as said earlier I would want to swap to T+E in the house as routing SWA would be difficult.

So going with 6mm SWA to 6mm T+E would mean the earth would swap from 2.5mm to 6mm would this be allowed?

The run would then be 15m SWA and 10mm T+E, this would make the SWA reach a point where the joint would be accessible.
 
So going with 6mm SWA to 6mm T+E would mean the earth would swap from 2.5mm to 6mm would this be allowed?
If your electrician decided to use the armour as well as the core of the SWA (I presume you're talking about 3-core SWA) as 'earth', the effective earth size of the SWA would be much more than 6mm². The adequacy of the the 2.5mm² earth in the indoor T+E would depend entirely on issues we've been discussing, in particular the earthing (and any bonding) arrangements which are going to be used in the garage - so, again, one for the electrician.[/quote]

Kind Regards, John
 
Personally I would find out if its possible to simply pull some armoured cable through the conduit either 4 or 6mm, if it will go then its problem solved surely?
 
Assuming the fault loop impedance is OK (here's why: electrics:fuses_and_miniature_circuit_breakers:mcb2), then yes.
... and, as I implied, also assuming that there is not a need for a main bonding conductor to the garage. Core+armour of 6mm² SWA would presumably be adequate for that, but the CPC of 6mm² T+E wouldn't.

Kind Regards, John
 
Very much depends on the state of the conduit, it may be a lost cause but on the other hand it may be a nice straight piece of 25mm galv, that's as good as the day it went in hence no problem,
 

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