Was I ripped off?

[ZACCCC]

I live in a mid-terrace street house and I had a problem with water staining in the corner of my small back bedroom, near the eaves. I thought this might be caused by condensation coming through the plasterboard from above. One of the roofers who came to price for the job pulled a couple of tiles off at the corner of the roof and showed me where the felt was wet underneath and thereby demonstrated that it wasn't condensation but rain getting underneath the tiles.

He told me that the secret valley between my roof and next door's wasn't sealed properly and needed to be cemented properly all the way up to the ridge. He also said he could sort out my condensation problem by fitting a dry ridge to the roof and by replacing the felt under the first three or four courses of tiles with breathable felt (about 9 or 10 feet long at the eaves). He also said he would install five vent tiles which would help to remove the condensation.

He did these four things but I don't think it's made much of a difference to the condensation problem, although I can't be sure because we haven't had a really cold snap since he did the job three weeks ago, when the condensation was pretty bad. Also, I've noticed that where he put the dry ridge on he's managed to put long screws through the roof felt at 5 different places. I've also noticed that where he's fitted the vented roof tiles there are fairly big gaps between the roof felt and the pipes that come into the loft from the vented tiles and I'm wondering if when there's driving rain it might come in through these gaps.

The roofer who did the job had a mate with him, who he left on his own two three times during the day, once to get materials and another time to get their take-away dinners but the total time between them arriving in the morning till leaving in the afternoon was less than 7 hours. He charged me £1000 and I feel that I have probably been somewhat ripped off and I'd be really interested in what any of the professional roofers out there have got to say on what I've written here. Thanks.

 

[Alastairreid]

Depends!
new vent tiles? type?
Dry ridge, membrane can cost a few quid.
Was a scaffold used?

You should have got 2 or 3 quotes.

 

[ZACCCC]

Depends!
new vent tiles? type?
Dry ridge, membrane can cost a few quid.
Was a scaffold used?

You should have got 2 or 3 quotes.

The vent tiles were of the type that have a wide pipe coming into the loft and then on the outside roof the profile is a bit like a ship's funnel. The scaffold used was some sort of suspension type.

Anyway, as I say, the two guys were there for no more than seven hours and let's say an hour each for travelling (they were local) so that's 16 hours between them. Let's say they're on £25 an hour (which would equal £1000 a week for 40 hours). So that's 16 x 25 = £400. I find it hard to believe they spent £600 on materials.

Are you a professional roofer? If so I would have been interested in any comments you had on the screws coming through the felt and also on the gaps where the pipes from the vent tiles come through into the loft.

 

[HERTS P&D]

Would you want £25 to go onto someones roof?

Andy

 

[Mw Roofline]

It doesn't matter how long it took, it's if they have done what you have asked for and for the price you agreed. Take some pics of the holes and we will have a look.
It takes ages for condensation to disappear.

 

[^woody^]

It doesn't matter how long it took, it's if they have done what you have asked for and for the price you agreed

Maybe for a business to business transaction, but there is consumer legislation to protect the less well informed to prevent overcharging for jobs such as building and roofing work. The price charged has to be fair, reasonable and at market rates.

The Consumer Rights Act will apply, but there is also redress in the civil courts. Either will cover poor work and negligent advice/work too.

 

[^woody^]

Anyway, as I say, the two guys were there for no more than seven hours and let's say an hour each for travelling (they were local) so that's 16 hours between them. Let's say they're on £25 an hour (which would equal £1000 a week for 40 hours). So that's 16 x 25 = £400. I find it hard to believe they spent £600 on materials.

It's not as straightforward as that, as there are many other costs and liabilities when running a business, and it's not just down to an hourly rate.

But, £1k seems too high and too much like a nice neat random figure.

 

[ZACCCC]

Would you want £25 to go onto someones roof?

Not sure what point you're making but you certainly haven't enlightened me on anything.

 

[ZACCCC]

It's not as straightforward as that, as there are many other costs and liabilities when running a business, and it's not just down to an hourly rate.

But, £1k seems too high and too much like a nice neat random figure.

Fair comment, as I believe was your reply to Mw Roofline. The main reason I think this guy was a cowboy was as follows. On the day he carried out the work he asked me if I could pay him in cash (which he'd never mentioned when he gave me the estimate a few days previously) as he had some cash flow problems so I asked him if he could do it any cheaper but he said that he couldn't as it still went through the books. I agreed to pay him £600 in cash if he would install two more vent tiles than we had initially agreed. When it came to paying him I gave him £600 in cash and a cheque for £400 but instead of giving me proper receipts for both he gave me only a proper receipt for the £400 cheque. On the original estimate form which had the figure of £1000 and was dated five days before he wrote the word "Total" next to the £1000 figure and signed it. When I pointed out that this wasn't a proper receipt for the £600 he got shirty with me and flounced off, taking his mate off the job and leaving my backyard with half the rubble etc from the work they'd done. It was only after I'd sent him an email threatening to stop the cheque if he didn't come back and give me a properly dated receipt for the £600 cash that I did eventually get the proper receipt.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Anybody who does roof work take great risk with their lives, because they can slip and fall and get killed. so they must charge death risk charge, or in other words it justifies them charging £400 per hour. (But hold on, they are roofers so they must know the risk or else why would they choose to do a risky job) so yes Nope, it does not justify them charging extortionate rate, they should not be doing roofing work if they think the job is a high risk.

An Armed forces recruit is sent to Iraq and his life is probably 1000 times more riskier, should he therefore charge HM Forces £4000ph?

An Ambulance driver who risks not only killing himself but his patient as well as possibly kill others on road when he has to rush emergency patients to hospital, so he takes immense risk with so many lives, do they get paid decent money for the risk they take?

Same for FIRE MEN... do theyd eserve risk money, they could get killed moree easily as they are tackling fires and buildings collapse, explosion risk from stored inflamables, gas cylinders, etc etc

Same goes for any trade, even a road sweeper, to traffic wardens, do they get risk money, a Traffic warden is 100 times more likely to be assaulted than a roofer

So my honest opinion is you have been ripped off by an incompetent cow boy claiming to be a roofer, so report him to trading standards and yes they do not deserve to earn £400 PH at any time. Even £40 ph is over the top.

 

[bbjc]

No sure where the 400 pound an hour comes from above. The price was 1,000 including scaffolding. Providing the breather membrane. The tile vents. The dry ridge system. Then bedding and pointing up the dry valley.

I dont actually think its that bad. Just throwing figures out there...but say 50 for the membrane. 100 for the dry ridge. 150 for the tile vents. 20 for the sand/cement pva etc. Thats 320 before we talk about the scaffold. You might be up to 500 quid maybe more before a jobs even done.

How much would people charge for putting a dry ridge on an excisting property labour? I d say 250 would be cheap for that. Changing the felt at the eaves...removing the first couple of rows of tiles etc both sides of the roof...say 150. Bedding and pointing the valley...maybe 150 depends what it is and fitting the 5 tile vents say 100. Thats starting to go over your 1,000 pounds already. Their probably prices for doing the jobs individually tbf. Cheaper if your doing them all while your up there. But as long as its done right i dont think a grand is too excessive. At least not enough to be calling trading standards over.

 

[^woody^]

Anybody who does roof work take great risk with their lives, because they can slip and fall and get killed. so they must charge death risk charge

Lol. I don't see many "death risk" charges added to tenders or invoices. And I would not want to.

What I would want to see is a proper risk assessment and method statement detailing how they will carry out the work safely.

 

[^woody^]

Another crucial point is whether a bit of staining in the corner of just one room, necessitated three layers of felt to be replaced across the house, vent tiles to be inserted in the whole roof area and the whole ridge to be replaced?

Or was it just a little localised leak?

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Sorry, I don't know how got to that figure of £400 ph, must have been the Spirit of Christmas! it is highly intoxicating !!


LOL! make s me laugh when people say roof work is dangerous, all jobs carry risk.

So OP paid 1000 pounds for 7 hours work, and assuming material cost no more than £300, then they earned roughly £100 ph between the two of them, the boss may have pockted £70 and the mate £30 ph. Most probably OK but a little on high side.

 

[bbjc]

I d say roofers should charge a premium. Even with the best precautions its still more dangerous than your average job. Thats just my take on it anyway.

700 between the two...what about the scaffold provided. May have been rented. Even if not they ve still provided it. I d say maybe slightly excessive but for the work done...its not a shockingly big price.

Again people talk about 700 and think thats pure profit but its not cheap to run a business nowadays. Plenty of things to fork out on. To me its like people are looking for homer prices. Guys that maybe do it on the side. 200 or 300 quid. But to run a business i d say 700 for that work maybe slighly excessive but not for the stage of calling trading standards. They probably wont be making 700 a day everyday. Its not how it works.

Agree with woody. Was the work necessary. Probably not...but each of the jobs kind of leaves you condensation proof for the future to an extent. You have agreed to have it done at the end of the day. Its hard to complain now.

Its not like the guys saying you need your roof painted to fix it. If you ve got condensation problems that will most probably fix it. Again before taking action i d wait until condensation or a leak actually returned before doing so.

They do sound a bit dodgy but it is how a lot of older people run a business nowadays. Take your cash and dont necesarily put it all through the books...but most that have been in the game long enough will come back if problems arise is what i ve found anyway if your reasonable with them. Its not ideal but it does go on. Again with the holes in the roof. It shouldnt really effect the roof bearing in mind the ridge tiles will have the necessary cover. I wouldnt worry unless they started leaking anyway. Just keep an eye on it.

I wouldnt be using them again in a hurry tho.