Washing machine on extension

Thanks
I think I may go with the below

Remove the current single socket (I'll have no access to this once the kitchen is in) and use a 13amp flex connector to attach the wiring and run a length of 2.5mm three core to a pattress box with switched socket where the washing machine will be.

Does that seem a safer route than an extension lead?
 
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Thanks
I think I may go with the below

Remove the current single socket (I'll have no access to this once the kitchen is in) and use a 13amp flex connector to attach the wiring and run a length of 2.5mm three core to a pattress box with switched socket where the washing machine will be.

Does that seem a safer route than an extension lead?

I am not an electrician but I am inclined to think that you will need to use something like WAGO 221 blocks rather than a screw down type terminal if the connection will no longer be accessible.


You may need the 3 way Wagos if the socket is on the ring and not a spur.
 
Thanks
I think I may go with the below

Remove the current single socket (I'll have no access to this once the kitchen is in) and use a 13amp flex connector to attach the wiring and run a length of 2.5mm three core to a pattress box with switched socket where the washing machine will be.

Does that seem a safer route than an extension lead?

I am not an electrician but I am inclined to think that you will need to use something like WAGO 221 blocks rather than a screw down type terminal if the connection will no longer be accessible.


You may need the 3 way Wagos if the socket is on the ring and not a spur.
 
A ring final was originally designed with the idea of electric heating and many electric heaters at the time were 3 kW.
The cable was 7/0.029 which is thicker than the cable now used, the live pins were solid brass so could conduct the heat away better, and the over load was set to 30 amp not 32 amp, since MCB's were not used, there was no need to consider 5 x with a B type device, so the loop impedance was less important. And the maximum length was set at 88 meters not 106 meters. Also we often used a thermal setting cable not thermal plastic, and in a typical house in 1954 we were looking at around 6 to 10 socket outlets total, so the whole criteria for a ring final has changed.

Also the items plugged in have changed, we had few refrigeration devices, cooking was mainly solid fuel or gas, I do remember my mother did have one ring, and the wire would regularly fail, and we would get a new one from Woolworths, when it failed it would often touch bottom of pan making it live.

The only diodes we had were in the form of valves, no semi-conductors, no inverters, and immersion heaters had reset buttons you could assess without removing covers. Lights had no earth wires, and typical supply was 60 amp only, and fuse box only designed for 60 amp, and normally only 4 fuses, lights, sockets, immersion heater, and cooker, often only 3 fuses.

What is the point in comparing the post war electrical system designed to save copper, with what we do today, the majority of washing machines were twin tubs, dragged to centre of floor on washing day, no tumble dryers, there was the Bendix front loader, which had to be bolted to the floor, and getting soap which would not erupt out of flap on the top was hard to find, we worked on the Persil Plan, I remember the books well.

And OMO was a washing powder, that washed whiter as it had the blue doll built into it.
 
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The only appliance where there is a problem is refrigeration, where volt drop can cause the motor to stal ....
That comment from you is totally predictable/expected, but I personally very much doubt that a credible extension lead (e.g. one 'rated' at 13A) would result in enough voltage drop to be an issue, even at compressor start-up.
I see no problem with a washing machine, however there is a problem with a washer/dryer. The washer/dryer used high amps for an extended time, so really needs a dedicated supply.....
I think that it must be very rare to see a domestic dryer or washer-dryer on a 'dedicated circuit'. I don't recall ever having seen that - have you?

Kind Regards, John
 
I do remember my mother did have one ring, and the wire would regularly fail, and we would get a new one from Woolworths, when it failed it would often touch bottom of pan making it live.

Eric, explain that 'wire' a little more, please?
 
I think that it must be very rare to see a domestic dryer or washer-dryer on a 'dedicated circuit'. I don't recall ever having seen that - have you?
Agreed I know mine is need centre of the ring final, so no problem, but the appendix is not a regulation although we were tested with questions from the appendix in the exam.
Eric, explain that 'wire' a little more, please?
It looked like a spring, you connected on end then wound it around the porcelain former stretching it as you went, then connecting other end.
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Seem to remember ours did have a wire guard over the heating wire, but clearly no earth connection as common to get a shock when the element failed.
 
Agreed I know mine is need centre of the ring final, so no problem, but the appendix is not a regulation although we were tested with questions from the appendix in the exam.
I was talking about 'common (seemingly virtually univeral) practice', not exams. I ask again ... have you seen any (or many) domestic dryers or washer-dryers on 'dedicated circuits' and, if not, why are you suggesting that such is 'required'?

Even as far as 'the exam' is concerned, the Appendix in question does not seem to say (recommend) what you are suggesting. All it recommends is:

(ii) not supplying immersion heaters, comprehensive electric space heating or loads of a similar profile from a ring circuit.
(iii) connecting cookers, ovens and hobs with a rated power exceeding 2 kW on their own dedicated circuit.


... no mention of dryers or washer dryers - so if, in an exam, you suggested that such loads 'should' be on dedicated loads, you answer would probably be considered to be 'wrong' (in terms of BS7671 and the recommendations of its Appendices), wouldn't it?

In any event, the recommendations to which you refer relate only to ring final circuits. Appendix 15 does not recommend any such restrictions as to what should be connected to a multi-socket radial final circuit (not uncommon in kitchens and utility rooms).

Kind Regards, John
 
I was talking about 'common (seemingly virtually univeral) practice', not exams. I ask again ... have you seen any (or many) domestic dryers or washer-dryers on 'dedicated circuits' and, if not, why are you suggesting that such is 'required'?

Even as far as 'the exam' is concerned, the Appendix in question does not seem to say (recommend) what you are suggesting.
All it recommends is:



(ii) not supplying immersion heaters, comprehensive electric space heating or loads of a similar profile from a ring circuit.

(iii) connecting cookers, ovens and hobs with a rated power exceeding 2 kW on their own dedicated circuit.


... no mention of dryers or washer dryers - so if, in an exam, you suggested that such loads 'should' be on dedicated loads, you answer would probably be considered to be 'wrong' (in terms of BS7671 and the recommendations of its Appendices), wouldn't it?

In any event, the recommendations to which you refer relate only to ring final circuits. Appendix 15 does not recommend any such restrictions as to what should be connected to a multi-socket radial final circuit (not uncommon in kitchens and utility rooms).

Kind Regards, John
Although it doesn't specifically mention dryers or washer dryers, then surely the above can be interpreted/suggestive that any one item over 2kW would probably be better on a dedicated circuit?
They certainly don't have the space, or requirement, to list every single item, or variation, of electrical equipment in use today so a bit of leeway and common sense is called for.
 
Or it may have been a loose connection in the plug or socket.
Generally speaking a loose wire will cause the generation of heat and burning whereas a bad pin to socket contact will create the brass/copper arching and welding.
However anything is possible if enough heat is generated.
 
Although it doesn't specifically mention dryers or washer dryers, then surely the above can be interpreted/suggestive that any one item over 2kW would probably be better on a dedicated circuit?
They certainly don't have the space, or requirement, to list every single item, or variation, of electrical equipment in use today so a bit of leeway and common sense is called for.
I think the easiest thing to look at is which items are supposed to be supplied complete with a fitted 13A plug. Washers and dryers are, hobs are not.

Most white goods these days are well sub 3KW and therefore adequately catered for by a correctly designed 13A socket circuit.
However I see no mention of a dedicated circuit for a kettle where the fashion has been to rise right up to the 3KW limit and having done a few test over recent years I've found a number running around the 14A area where the voltage well exceeds the 230V
 
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Although it doesn't specifically mention dryers or washer dryers, then surely the above can be interpreted/suggestive that any one item over 2kW would probably be better on a dedicated circuit?
Yes, it could (very reasonably) be so interpreted, but eric was talking about 'exams' for which it is 'what the book actually says' that usually matters.

However, as I said, that recommendation only relates to ring final circuits, and exists specifically to reduce the risk of one leg of the ring being overloaded by a large load being applied close to one end of the ring.

If the dryer/whatever is connected near the centre of the ring, then the situation is no different (actually, usually 'better') than if it were supplied by a radial circuit of similar capacity - for which there is no recommendation that any sort of load should have a 'dedicated' circuit.

As with so many things, it really comes down to 'electrical common sense'.

Kind Regards, John
 
I think the easiest thing to look at is which items are supposed to be supplied complete with a fitted 13A plug. Washers and dryers are, hobs are not.
That's a little different, since it's really a matter of whether or not the load is (or may be) greater than 13A rather than the issue of potentially unbalanced loading of a ring final circuit.

Two (or more) 'large' loads connected close to one end of a ring can theoretically 'overload' the cable of the short leg of the ring, even if each of the loads is (legitimately) connected via a 13A plug.
Most white goods these days are well sub 3KW and therefore adequately catered for by a correctly designed 13A socket circuit.
However I see no mention of a dedicated circuit for a kettle where the fashion has been to rise right up to the 3KW limit and having done a few test over recent years I've found a number running around the 14A area where the voltage well exceeds the 230V
True, but kettles are only on for very short periods of time. Don't forget that Method C 2.5mm² cable is deemed to be able to safely carry about 39A for one hour (and much higher currents for shorter periods), and even if the CCC of the cable (as installed) is the minimum allowed (20A) it is still deemed able to safely carry about 29A for an hour.

Kind Regards, John
 
It looked like a spring, you connected on end then wound it around the porcelain former stretching it as you went, then connecting other end.

I've never seen on like that, as a top ring, our rings were metal slabs, apart from the grill, which used bare wire. To rewire them, you didn't 'stretch as you went' - you measured the length with string, then stretched the element to match the string length, so it was nice and even once in it's slot.
 
That's a little different, since it's really a matter of whether or not the load is (or may be) greater than 13A rather than the issue of potentially unbalanced loading of a ring final circuit.

Two (or more) 'large' loads connected close to one end of a ring can theoretically 'overload' the cable of the short leg of the ring, even if each of the loads is (legitimately) connected via a 13A plug.

True, but kettles are only on for very short periods of time. Don't forget that Method C 2.5mm² cable is deemed to be able to safely carry about 39A for one hour (and much higher currents for shorter periods), and even if the CCC of the cable (as installed) is the minimum allowed (20A) it is still deemed able to safely carry about 29A for an hour.

Kind Regards, John
Yep I like to think I know all that. and have identified oferload of one end of a ring several times, one was blatantly predictable, the house owner had added a socket in his garagealmost beside the CU, a 32A socket for the welder which he used a lot making wrought iron products.

However I didn't expect it in a new build (actually I'll say perhaps I should expect it these days)

It was a big house ~6 or 7 bedrooms etc. One leg of the kitchen ring showed signs of heating at the cable clips by the CU and was warm to the touch. The 'Laundry room' containing/washer drier, washer, drier, drying cupboard, large upright double width freezer, steam iron (type with boiler tank and close down press) backed on to the CU with first run maybe <1m certainly <2m. The ring then continued to the large grid in kitchen maybe as close as <6m from CU feeding 2x dishwasher tap water boiler, drinks water boiler, fridges, freezers etc followed by the sockets which had just about every expensive bit of kit imaginable plugged in. It was a fairly obvious route for the cable runs, basically along the wall of the laundry room, continue along the kitchen and follow round 2 walls, with only fridge & freezer supplies to the 4th wall from the grid, and back to the CU, potentially ~30m total. However it soon became apparent the 'downstairs ring' had only some of the dining room sockets, all the remainder and the other 5 rooms; Lounge, snug, office, games room & gym were on 'kitchen ring' which tested end to end as >100m with all of the heavy items in the first quarter or less.

My first test was current clamp at MCB which at the time showed well over 32A and a very high percentage of that on one leg.
 

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