what are my rights after being a victim of Dot & Dab til

[thisismyusername]

Heres the situation. We got a builder in to sort out our bathroom. We agreed on a price in exchange for him to knock out a small chimney, take off old tiles and lino and put on new wall and floor tiles and to replace/fit the whole bathroom suite (basin, bath & toilet). We were to pay him only for labour, we provided all the materials.

He has taken the little chimney out, ripped out our old suite, plastered the walls and subsequently tiled and grouted the walls & floor.

But theres a problem.

Firtsly he has messed up the border part of the tiles (the wall tiles are different on the bottom, has a border in the middle and then different tiles on the top). The border follows one pattern on one wall and then on the opposite wall, he has turned the border upside down and put it on.

Secondly, allot of the wall tiles and floor tiles are uneven.

Thirdly & most worryingly, he has used a method i believe is known as 'dot and dab' when tiling the wall tiles. Basically, he put adhesive on the corner of the tiles, as opposed to putting it evenly on the wall and then laying the tile on it. When i challenged him about it, he said that theres nothing wrong doing it his way and that there wont be any problems as a result of it and that it was because our walls are really bad (i thought that plastering it would have sorted it). When you knock on the tiles, they all sound different, even different parts of the same tile has an echo sort of sound.

Fourthly, i have asked him several times to Earth Bond the taps and bath/bathtaps when he gets round to installing the new bath and he keeps telling me that its not necessary and that he has been fitting in baths for a decade without earthing & its never been a problem. He has even cut off the existing green & yellow cable and tiled the floor.

We also had him run down two electrical wires from the loft to the bathroom side walls for some new lights, and a friend of my father, who is in the trade checked & said that he has not run them down properly & that it could short out.

Needless to say i do not wish for this guy to continue to carry out any more work in my property.

Heres the problem. We have not paid him anything yet. We have not told him that we do not wish for him to continue his work. He is waiting for us to call him once our bath suite comes, so that he can come and install it in order to complete the job & collect his money. What should we do? Should we pay him for the part of the work he has carried out (which is ruining £1000 worth of tiles and materials, that will now have to be taken off and replaced, not to mention new labour for someone else to fit it in) or is there anything i can quote him or do to justify not paying him when he comes around next? The way im seeing it is that we agreed he would do certain things, which he has not delivered on/fulfilled (by doing a shoddy substandard job which probably wouldnt even meet British Standards), and we will be further out of pocket by getting new materials/tiler/plumber, so why should i pay him on top of it all. If anything, i should be asking him to pay for the materials.

Any help/advice/experience would be appreciated as i would like to handle the situation as amicably as possbile when i tell him of my decision, and do not wish for him to try and convince me otherise that he has done a safe, secure, solid job & get taken in by his assurities & guarantees, i would rather quote him or be able to prove to him that what he has done is unethical & unacceptable.

Sorry about this being too long and do let me know if you think im being wrong here & for what reasons

 

[jctilingservices]

.....

Firstly let me say how sorry i am to hear of you woe BUT thats what you get when you hire a builder to do a tilers work


1) Tiles need to come off, be cleaned and then re-fixed in correct order.

I dont think you owuld get a pro tiler to come out and fix your builders work without starting from scratch

2) i assume you mean lippage, only way to rectify this now is as above, strip and re-tile

3) Dot and Dab is not acceptable anywhere, especially in the bathroom, water, steam etc will eventually make the tiles pop off the wall

4) dont think it is compulsory to use an earth bonding wire in a bathroom anymore, ( i could be wrong but dont think so)

5) if your fathers friend is an electrician take notice of what he says, if not have an electrician check it over for you. Did your builder issue you with a certificate for any electrical work he undertook?


6) i would`nt want the guy in my home or any of my customers homes either, let alone back in yours

7) DO NOT PAY HIM, tell him you are unhappy with his workmanship, give him the chance to put it right.
DO NOT let him fit your suite

8) options available :- get him to remedy the work, get him to pay someone else to remedy the work. Ask if he is a qualified electrician or part P registered, explain that you think / have been told the wiring is dangerous, take him to small claims court, claim off his insurance if he is insured

9)ask him to fully reimburse you for the costs of tiles, adhesives and anything else you paid for and have to have re done, Then get a pro in.

10) 1 other option tell him if its not sorted out to your satisfaction you will be reporting to trading standards, if he is genuine he will do his best to sort everything out amicably, if he is not genuine then no matter what you say or do will you get any satisfaction.

 

[jctilingservices]

1 other thing, he might huff and puff, threatening to come and undo / wreck all the work he has done. Its a bluff as he has lost nothing. You bought everything so thereofre he would be commiting criminal damage / theft.


Please keep us up to date with whatever occurs, if you need anymore help / advice dont hesitate to ask

Jimmy

 

[sherlockholmes]

In your position I would get a qualified surveyor to assess the work as an uninterested third party, this removes any need to debate with him over the quality of his work and things like the earth bonding, where he is demonstrably in the wrong. He may even be liable for a fine if he's run afoul of the electrical regulations, you could check that in the electrical forum. Obviously you shouldn't pay him anything, but i'm sorry to say it's unlikely you can do this amicably.
Informing trading standards is an option you may want to mention to him, and a path you should take anyway to protect others.

 

[1john]

Have you informed building control that you are having electrical work done in your bathroom? Why have you got a 'builder' doing electrical and tiling work, what is his trade?

 

[thisismyusername]

Thanks Jimmy and sherlock for your thoughtful advice.

The builder came around earlier, wanting to be paid for his partial work. We took him upstairs, showed him the border and he said "so". We then told him that we wernt happy with the way he laid the tiles and he said that our walls were really bad and that the work is good and that the tiles wont falls off and if they did then to call him.

I went on to say that the walls were plastered before the tiles were put on so how can the walls not be right for tiling like they were supposed to be. He started banging his hand on a tile and said 'nothing will happen they are solid'. I then told him that it doesnt meet British standards and if he is adamant that he has done a good job then i shall get a third party report collated and if the outcome is that the tiles are not laid properly, i expect him to pay for the report and if it says that the job is done to a good standard then we will bare the cost and pay him for what he has partially done.

He then said that he will re do all the work again if we provide the materials/tiles. I told him that he will be responsible for all correctional costs. He didn't admit liability and maintained that the work was done properly (although doesnt deny dotting and dabbing).

At this point he walked down the stairs and out of the house whilst we were saying to him that we should sit down and talk about this properly. He got into his car, i went up to his window to try and convince him to talk about this and reach a resolution, he seemed to be angry, he started his car and sped off.

He called 20 minutes later, was fuming, shouted allot, didnt make much sense, didnt understand a word he was saying and he then hanged up. I dont know what to make of it to be honest.

I think a good outcome would be if we didnt pay him and got the remaining work done from someone else. The best outcome would be if he corrected his work, but thats not going to happen, considering the material costs more then the job was worth.

He didnt give any certificate for the electrical work he done.

 

[Richard C]

Didn’t post on this one as the length of your first post looked rather daunting & I didn’t have the time to put in yesterday . I have been following with interest though & agree with everything the other guys have said & the approach you’re adopting; at least you hadn't paid him & in that respect, you’ve had a very lucky escape IMO.

Make sure get the electrics re-installed by a Part P qualified spark; once they are in you will not (legally) find anyone willing to sign it off & issue a minor works certificate so you’ll have no electrical compliance & that could cause you problems in the future. If the guy that did it isn’t certified, he’s actually broken the law unless he submitted a Building notice for inspection & subsequent testing.

 

[1john]

I have one question and I dont mean to come across as awkward, but why was all of this allowed to continue? Surely you must have spotted some problems before the job had got this far?

I am just looking at it from the builders perspective, you have to understand that he is angry no matter what mistakes he has made. Not that his methods are correct but he always does jobs in this manner and presumabally gets paid for them or else he wouldn't be doing the job any more.

 

[tictic]

you cant withhold payment from him..you have a contract with him (verbal or writtin)..

yes by the sounds of it,it bad workmanship not up to BS stanadards...

you have to speak to him about it (already done)...but he can now take you to the small claims court himself for payment..

so either speak to him or send a recorded letter,saying you wish to get this resolved asap..then ask him to reply within 7 days.

if the two off you are still not happy,then you will have to get an indepedant survey done stating any bad workmanship,then approach your local trading standards office and let them know what has been happening...

then ask your builder to redo any works needing.

if still not happy then you take him to the small claims court.
but again you cannot withhold payment for any work carried out till present(its the law am afraid)..

 

[sherlockholmes]

I don't think that is correct, because the OP's statutory rights have been broken which grants him the right to terminate any contract and withhold payment:

Your statutory rights

With contracts for Work and Materials where the main focus is labour and skill, you are always protected by three statutory terms, even if you have nothing in writing, or the contract you signed does not specifically mention them. They are:

1. Reasonable care and skill

As you are buying the services of a trained professional, there is the assumption that the builder or tradesman will act with ‘reasonable care and skill’. If he does not, you can claim a breach of your statutory rights and be entitled to terminate the contract and either pay nothing further or seek to get your money back through the courts. Where substandard work has been carried out, you may well have incurred greater potential costs to have the work put right, so it is not enough simply to ask for your money back. In such circumstances, it may be more appropriate to pursue a claim for damages. Remember that where the cost of the work is over £100 and you are able to pay by credit card, you would be well advised to do so. This would make the credit card company equally liable where you were not able to recover your costs from the builder.

More info here:
http://whatconsumer.co.uk/dealing-with-dodgy-tradesmen-or-builders/

The builder would of course have the right to legally challenge, which would send the matter to the courts, but given the information presented it seems clear he would lose. And regardless I think it highly unlikely the dodgy builder would pursue through the courts in this case - being unqualified and putting in dodgy electrics is an offense that can carry a fairly heavy fine and he won't want to draw attention to it. If it were just the tiling being poor it might be borderline on claiming a statutory rights violation as it's subjective, though getting the border in the wrong place should tip it over to my mind, but throw in the criminal electrics and I think you have a really sound footing for withholding payment.

Pursuing the money he should give you for materials and the extra work through the courts is another matter, personally I'd let it go rather than face all the hassle of a court case. I do think you'd have a strong case if you wanted to go that way though, again you'd start with the third party assessment then see a lawyer. Just bear in mind that winning the case doesn't necessarily mean he'd pay up.

 

[thisismyusername]

Hi guys and Sherlock, that piece of information is very useful to have.

Heres the latest. He called my mother today (he has her mobile number) and said to her that he wants to take the old tiles off and put them back on. He wants us to provide the adhesive and says that he will pay for any tiles that are damaged.

He has made indirect threats such as "i will get my full money" etc

I personally think he just wants a chance to ruin the tiles on the off chance that we may leave his tiles on.

I would love to be able to sent him such paperwork through the post, but we dont have his address or anything, we got his details from a leaflet. Stupid i know, i should have been allot more vigilant....but i dont even think he is a part of a company or even registered.

Do you think i should just make a partial payment in good faith just to get him off my back as my family seem to think i should? I really dont think he deserves a penny (he must know that he has done wrong because when i confronted him about his methods, he blamed that the walls wernt right, when he plastered them before applying them, so thats a lie and how does he propose to tile them properly now on the same wall if they wernt fine before).

 

[1john]

I think he wants to rectify the job for you so he gets paid. I am guessing he hasn't charged much for the job anyways ( I may be wrong). To get rid of him I would go for the electrical route, telling him that he has broken the law in doing the wiring in the bathroom. On over all reflection perhaps a part payment may be fair and leave you in a more comfortable situation, after all he had done the job to the best of his ability and perhaps you could have highlighted concerns earlier on.

 

[thisismyusername]

The latest is that he has told my mum over the phone that he is prepared to remove the old tiles and re use them again to tile them properly and if any of them break he will replace them, but he wants us to pay for the adhesive. I think its a ploy to come into the property and destroy the tiles out of spite. Besides my understanding was that most of them would break/crack and even if they didnt, they wouldnt maintain their original integrity. My parents want to give him £200 in good faith and tell him to sling his hook, as they dont want the animosity between us and are afraid that he might smash our window in or something lol. He called my brother up earlier on today and indirectly threatened him that 'he will get his full money' whether he has finished the job or not.

My mothers invited him around tomorrow in the evening to talk. We propose to ask him to re lay the tiles using his own material and new tiles, not the old ones and that we will only allow him to take the old ones off once the new material is here-to prevent him from causing damage and fleeing. Obviously he wont go for this option since it will cost him more then the labour we were due to pay him. He can then take the £200 and call it a day. If not then he either leaves empty handed, with a black eye or in hand cuffs.

Im going to draw up 2 agreements, for whichever he fancies fulfilling. Any ideas on the kind of conditions i should enlist?

 

[sherlockholmes]

1John's approach is perfectly reasonable and probably the path of least resistance. Personally I'd take a harder line and refuse to pay him anything, pointing out the substandard tiling and illegal elecrical work, and the cost to you of rectifying, but then I'm retired and like a good dispute to pass the time. Don't expect to get all the tiles off in usable condition, then there's scraping off the old adhesive and maybe making good the walls, plus replacing any electrical cable he ran and the earth bonding he cut.

I think with the threat of legal action over his illegal amateur electrics the ball is entirely in your court, and that he really does not deserve any money. I'd expect there to be threats, shouting and bluster which you'd need to be prepared to weather, but if you stand your ground, stick up for your rights and refuse to be bullied I think you'd come out on top.

He clearly can't produce work to an acceptable standard, so don't let him try to rectify it and waste more materials. I'd put everything in writing - the faults in his work, the part p regulations he broke, the cost of materials he wasted, the statutory rights of yours he broke which allows you to terminate any verbal contract in effect etc. Invite him to engage a third party arbitrator at shared cost, and inform him that building control would then be informed of his notifiable (and illegal) electrical work as part of the inspection. Contact him by phone and ask for a postal address, when he refuses ask for a face to face, have a witness present and hand over the letter.

Please do keep this thread updated, I'm finding it fascinating. I'd be happy to help draft a letter if you need assistance there.

 

[sherlockholmes]

Perhaps I'm being a little wordy there, so just to be clear - in between my fancy long-winded letters citing statutory rights etc, I would tell the man in plain english that he was getting nothing for wrecking my job and if he gave any trouble at all or contacted any member of my family again I would report him for the illegal electrical work, complain to trading standards, and sue him in small claims court for the cost of the tiles.

Offering him 200 is likely to produce less hassle though, I must admit. It just rubs me up the wrong way. A man should pay for his own mistakes.