What's Your Take - Fractured Copper

Joined
18 Feb 2009
Messages
417
Reaction score
45
Location
Berkshire
Country
United Kingdom
Had to attend a leaking CH pipe buried within the floor recently. Dug out the surrounding screed and quickly found the pipe which was wrapped. The leaking section had a long crack running along the length to which the first pictures refers. Having cut this out I felt the pipe crack further down as I tried to insert a new section. Pulled this pipe out which broke like a twig, to which the second picture refers.

There is no possibility of the pipe having been subjected to freezing and the pipe doesn't show extensive corrosion, particularly that in the second picture.

A similar crack was found on the return pipe so I have to assume that the whole ground floor might be affrected.

What do you think would be the cause in this case?

View media item 44129 View media item 44123
 
Sponsored Links
Was this copper tube embedded tightly in a concrete or cement/sand screed with no covering?

I'll say work hardened due to no space for movement when heating and cooling occurs which has led to failure..
 
Tru well - `kin `ell - That was in the early 70`s and was steel coated with zinc , AFAIK :confused: Done just the one job with it , as an apprentice - often wondered how long it lasted ;) and late 70`s there was a copper shortage and this unbendable shyte copper came in from the newly created EEC ( EU) I`ll bet that`s what you`ve got there :idea:
 
Sponsored Links
Tru well - `kin `ell - That was in the early 70`s and was steel coated with zinc , AFAIK :confused: Done just the one job with it , as an apprentice - often wondered how long it lasted ;) and late 70`s there was a copper shortage and this unbendable shyte copper came in from the newly created EEC ( EU) I`ll bet that`s what you`ve got there :idea:

Passivated zinc, or perforated zinc? ;)
 
Pipes definately copper and not seamed so not truwell. Besides house was only built in the mid-eighties.

I think Norcon is right, though the worst case I have ever seen. The screed was very hard and whilst the pipe was wrapped it was done so in tubular felt lagging which doesn't really afford much room for movement, especially if the screed is applied too wet and impregnates the lagging. The pipe runs in this house are very long with no movement allowed at the various tees or elbows (all soldered).

Total estimated cost of repair is in the region of £50k, due to the size of the house (IRO 10 bedrooms) and requirement to remove all the flooring which is soild throughout.

It's at times like these I appreciate my modest lifestyle.
 
It looks like frost damage to me. I once replumbed all the CH in a huge bungalow by rerouting in the loft with droppers to each rad. Same problem, leaks under the floor.
 
Interesting.
I used to be a metallurgist, & worked for a while in a tube works.

A quick look under scope would soon tell.

For work hardening leading to failure you have to plastically deform metal, ie bend it, not just spring it. Thermal expansion /contraction works out to be very little movement. This pipe doesn't look to have fractures in the right way to fit that. It's actually very hard to stop a pipe moving the sort of distances involved so you only get a problem with a long length, and it wouldn't cause this longitudinal cracking, it basically squashes the pipe at bends and tees, and makes solder joints fail.

This looks a bit like freezing damage, but you always get expansion of the diameter when that happens, even in the unsplit parts. In my experience it goes half a mm or so before something gives. And the part where the ice pushes through the copper, it really pushes the pipe out locally, because it weakens it as it goes thinner. Any sign of that?
Looking again at your pictures the pipes are deformed - is all of that where you hauled it out of the floor?

Corrosion is a main contributor, would be my guess, without looking closer. If you get bad pipe it'll have sulphur in the copper, which makes it brittle and also allows intergranular corrosion. The grains are extruded out during manufacture into linear "fibering" so the lines of corrosion go generally along the length. Any mechanical deformation would make it worse.
There has been a lot of crappy pipe, I've come across it in housefuls. Imported during shortages, things like that.
Sometimes you get a garden-hose effect, with a line of little holes corroded through, mostly in lines along the pipe.
Copper doesn't tend to corrode a lot of course, until someone leaves flux residues or similar in there with chlorides and acidity. The you DO get the intergranular corrosion. That sort doesn't show much on a surface, it goes initially for grain boundaries, then causes cracks. In the cracks you get little electrolytic cells doing their thing and making it accelerate.

The next thing you get , is movement from heating and cooling which is in the elastic region of the stress/strain curve. If you get huge numbers ( millions) of cycles, wings drop off aeroplanes, and that, and it's called metal fatigue. It's a vibration thing really.
You will not get enough cycles to cause metal fatigue itself, but there is a similar effect with fewer cycles, down at fine level, where new corrosion sites are exposed as the movement occurs. It's called "Stress-corrosion cracking".
The characterisic fracture surface is not deformed, but a bit faceted. You don't see gross corrosion like you would on the surface of the pipe, unless it's been an aggressive chemical. Stress Corrosion Cracking is much slower and smaller scale.
Does that fit?


That deformation - if the pipes were weakened by SCC, then increased pressure from freezing could easily make it "go" in long sections, I'd have thought.
 
I think I can rule out freezing as all pipe runs are internal and protected from the elements. House is constantly occupied and they like it warm! Thickness of the pipe is also uniform around the location of the fractures.

The deformation you see in the second picture is from where I twisted it out as opposed to other deformity. It was to demonstrate that the copper was no longer malleable and had become brittle.

Your explanation re corrosion does fit, particularaly if it was assumed the pipe to had a high sulphur content within the copper.

In all possibly a combination of poor copper coupled with bad installation practices.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top