Whirlpool bath isolation

[Big_Spark]

Ban, perhaps if you bothered to read the page fully you will understand.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I did read the page fully.

Including the list of some of your aims, at the top of which is

Campaign, alongside the ECA, for the abolition of DIY Electrical Work.

In what way might I have misunderstod that?

 

[Big_Spark]

I mean read the main DIY page.

And since you bring up the AE3, you might like to read the main page for that..it is a holding page on my webspace, Franklin-Wood Ltd and AE3 are seperate entities

The ECA have been running that campaign for the 28 years with no success!!

And I stand by those comments.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I mean read the main DIY page.

OK - I hadn't read that before, but now I have....

And since you bring up the AE3, you might like to read the main page for that..it is a holding page on my webspace, Franklin-Wood Ltd and AE3 are seperate entities

I can't argue about that, but are you and AE3 separate entities?

The ECA have been running that campaign for the 28 years with no success!!

Long may they continue to fail.

And I stand by those comments.

So Franklin-Wood as an entity are opposed to DIY work.

AE3 are opposed to DIY work, and plan to campaign for it to be criminalised.
AE3 are opposed to DIY work, and plan to campaign for it to be made unlawful.

You personally agree with those positions, and depending on how "separate" Mr James Franklin is or is not from AE3, he will, to some extent at least, be supporting their campaign to criminalise DIY work.
You personally agree with those positions, and depending on how "separate" Mr James Franklin is or is not from AE3, he will, to some extent at least, be supporting their campaign to make DIY work unlawful.

And yet on the FWL DIY main page, you say

we .. have put this section of the site together so that we can provide the DIYer with an expert view on how to complete the work safely, effectively and in compliance with all relevant regulations.

Here you will find all the information you need to safely and effectively undertake those small electrical jobs around the home.

So which do you believe?

Do you belive what you have written on the website, that you can provide DIYers with information to make them safe?

Do you believe that you should be giving advice to DIYers on this forum?

Or do you believe that DIYers should be turned into criminals?
Or do you believe that DIYers should be turned into lawbreakers?


The words "hypocrisy" and "rank" spring to mind.

 

[Big_Spark]

OK..let me make MY position VERY clear on this point, and it is a position you will find common amongst the majority of Electricians and Electrical Engineers in the UK.

I do not feel it appropriate for the unqualified to be allowed to do any form of electrical work, in the home or workplace. Primarilly this is solely for safety reasons, however I would be a liar if I denide that I would not benefit if this was the case..a ban occured that is.

However I am pragmatic, DIY electrical work does occur, my being in disagreement with those doing it will not stop them or change a blooming thing, so therefore my position is to ensure that the information they use in order to do the work allows them to do that work SAFELY, EFFECTIVELY and within the requirments of all relevent regulations and legislation.

If that seems at odds to you, then so be it. That IS my position, has always been my position, and always will be.

I think your choice of the adjective CRIMINALISED is a bit extreme and alarmist.

I would simply like to see the electrical industry regulated properly for the safety and benefit of the public at large, but also for those working in it.

Unfortunately for the DIY fraternity, those goals are mutually exclusive.

You and I may not agree on this point, and I think we need to simply accept that, but it is unlikely to chnage either yours or my opinions on the matter.

Regarding you question about turning DIYer's into criminals...don't be daft.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I think your choice of the adjective CRIMINALISED is a bit extreme and alarmist.

Regarding you question about turning DIYer's into criminals...don't be daft.

Well - I will admit that the red mist had descended when I wrote that, but...

You do say above that you would like a "ban".

On the EA3 website, you say

Campaign, alongside the ECA, for the abolition of DIY Electrical Work.

Now, I will also admit that I don't know what the ECA have said on this topic - I have tried searching their site and the whole web, but no joy.

I would be surprised though if what they (and by extension therefore you) want is a voluntary ban. If you campaign for something to be abolished then you aren't going to regard anything short of a legal ban on it counting as "abolition".

And if something is legally banned, then doing it is illegal. The term for people who do things which are illegal is "criminal".

Extreme and Alarmist? Daft? Only if my logic is flawed. Which it might be - maybe you do only want a voluntary ban. Or a ban, the breaking of which is treated a bit like a motoring offence - doesn't come under the heading of "criminality".

So for now I'll go back and reword what I wrote, unless and until I can get clarification of what the ECA mean by "abolition"

 

[Big_Spark]

Now, I will also admit that I don't know what the ECA have said on this topic - I have tried searching their site and the whole web, but no joy.

Or a ban, the breaking of which is treated a bit like a motoring offence - doesn't come under the heading of "criminality".

You won't find it on the ECA website unless you have membership details to get into the secure area..and I don't even know if it is there, but it is and always has been one of their aims.

I take your point about "illegal" meaning criminal, but I was visualising something more akin to your "driving offence" analogy.

However I would see this as being something enforced by Local Authorities rather than the jackboots of the local gestapo

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You won't find it on the ECA website unless you have membership details to get into the secure area..and I don't even know if it is there, but it is and always has been one of their aims.

I wonder why they aren't more forthcoming about it?

Surely it can't be because the figures for DIY-electrical-installation deaths and injuries don't justify it?

 

[Big_Spark]

No, you need to remember that the ECA is effectively "The old boys network" for a bunch of corporate suits that think they have the best interests of everyone at heart.

They believe they are better than everyone else, they are "owned" by the industry, they are paid for by their members and are self appointed, bit like the NICEIC.

The ECA speak for barely 15% of the total number of Registered Electrical Contractors in the UK, but their members make the top 80% of the turn-over for the industry..so they feel they can speak for all!!

Regarding the ECA's thoughts on DIY..

the ECA has argued for the statutory support of the IEE Wiring Regulations (now BS 7671) and the requirement that electrical installation work should be carried out by qualified electrical installers for more than 30 years, to date the nearest the industry has got to this will be the new Part P of the Building Regulations

This is from their latest "guide" sent to members.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes, but Franklin-Wood can't wait to join them, CEL already have, and you personally agree with them about DIY.

Presumably they don't think Part P goes far enough. Do you know if they've ever explained what they mean by "statutory support of the IEE Wiring Regulations"?

 

[Big_Spark]

Actually, Franklin-Wood will NOT be joining the ECA. CEL is, but before my involvement in the company, and in a few months this may change.

As for their definition of statutory support, I have no more idea than you do, I don't think they do either.

You are correct, Part P goes nowhere near far enough.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Actually, Franklin-Wood will NOT be joining the ECA.

Ah - sorry - it's just that when on here http://www.franklin-wood.co.uk/about_us.htm I read

As we grow as a company, it is our objective to seek accreditation, at the earliest opportunity, within our fields of expertise. This will not be limited to, but will include all of the following.

Electrical Contractors Association (ECA)
National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting
.
.

I did interpret that to mean that FWL would be joining the ECA..

As for their definition of statutory support, I have no more idea than you do, I don't think they do either.

I'll ask them.....

You are correct, Part P goes nowhere near far enough.

Considering it was basically devised after years of lobbying by ECA and NICEIC in order to further the interests of their members, I think we should all be jolly grateful that it doesn't go far enough. However far that is.

Did you know that if, by better training and regulation we could reduce by 1% the number of people killed on the roads in this country, then every month we would save as many lives as Part P is promised to save every 5 years?

 

[Big_Spark]

Ban, ECA bit has gone. The about us came from a Business Plan which was written by by partners about 10 months ago. The ECA part should not have made it to the web, mistake on my part there.

It was an original thought to Join, but in discussions since we have all agreed that being members of the ECA constitutes no commercial advantage for the company, costs us money and overall won't really offer us anything of any significance in our opinions.

Consequently they won't be recieving an application anytime soon.

Regarding the 1%..hardly surprises me. But then the Government would rather get our money than keep us safe when it comes to the roads!

 

[journeyman]

Maybe the LEIA should start a campaign to ban stairs in residential properties. After all, lifts are much safer than stairs. Or we could ban all sheds, lots of accidents happen in those.

Or, maybe we should learn from history, banning does not work, it usually makes the problem worse.

There should be more historians working in the civil service an government.

 

[Big_Spark]

Maybe the LEIA should start a campaign to ban stairs in residential properties. After all, lifts are much safer than stairs. Or we could ban all sheds, lots of accidents happen in those.

PLEASE..don't give them any ideas!