Define "win".... 
Who Needs 17th Edition?
- Thread starter Ellogg
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So it's your fault that protective bonding cables in a wall need RCD protection?
(Joking btw)
No but I know who's it is - what's it worth
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NotHimAgain Interested in what you have said and I will agree that a course on the meaning of the regulations would be very interesting. But I am sure you will agree very little interpretation is required in the exam and with one or two exceptions you are only showing your ability to read.
Unfortunately I have to agree about University degree’s I was asked as part of project to highlight any safety concerns, seems they expected me to answer non but the PLC was designed to be fitted in a cabinet and the ventilation slots were too big and you could access live feed terminals without the use of a tool. Oh did I cause some problems and how ever much I tried to explain I had only raised it as it didn’t comply with regulations they still seemed to think if I felt the workshops were not safe I should leave the course.
As to understanding I will agree I don’t understand what is required by some of the regulations as Ban-all-sheds raised before you can hardly protect an earth cable or an SELV cable with an earth shield or an RCD and with SELV this could mean you should not hide cables in a wall or could mean there is an oversight and it was not meant to include them! If one reads section 721 it is for a caravan which is “not for habitation purposes” so does that mean it only applies when J. Clarkson and co are smashing them up? Most people would consider they were “inhabiting” it while on holiday and it takes some hunting to find to be “habitable” it must have fixed sewerage, a water closet, and mains water.
But no questions of this sort are asked in the exam. If it said:- A 70°C Thermoplastic insulated SWA cable has 36mm² of steel armouring what is the copper equivalent S
a) 6mm² b) 10mm² c) 16mm² d) 25mm²
Now that would show you can use the book, it’s all there:- formula in table 54.7 and k1 is given table 43.1 and k2 in table 54.4 so 36x51/115=16mm² thank god it doesn’t because I for one would fail.
I don’t think anyone could comply with the BS7671:2008 without referring to it from time to time and those of us that have used the 16th Edition would need to know the changes listed pages 4 to 6 and we are only tested on the changes anyway if you have done the BS7671:2001 and yes with a lecturer pointing out the changes one can learn where one needs to look quicker than DIY but it is far easier than it was.
With the on line test allowing you to change your answer as many times as you want then by marking those where one is unsure and missing those you don’t know one does first run. Then doing those you need to look up second run and final check answer of those one is not sure on. Most people can get the pass mark required. Especially if one has also read the sample questions.
One is after all learning how to pass the exam not how to use the 17th Edition and some of the questions one will never need to know why would anyone need to know what BS EN 1648 is to comply with the red book? The questions on BS EN numbers to me is completely useless in working out if someone can use the book. It’s like a Bibliography and can’t see why we should need to refer to it in the exam but we are not learning how to use it only how to pass exam?
Unfortunately I have to agree about University degree’s I was asked as part of project to highlight any safety concerns, seems they expected me to answer non but the PLC was designed to be fitted in a cabinet and the ventilation slots were too big and you could access live feed terminals without the use of a tool. Oh did I cause some problems and how ever much I tried to explain I had only raised it as it didn’t comply with regulations they still seemed to think if I felt the workshops were not safe I should leave the course.
As to understanding I will agree I don’t understand what is required by some of the regulations as Ban-all-sheds raised before you can hardly protect an earth cable or an SELV cable with an earth shield or an RCD and with SELV this could mean you should not hide cables in a wall or could mean there is an oversight and it was not meant to include them! If one reads section 721 it is for a caravan which is “not for habitation purposes” so does that mean it only applies when J. Clarkson and co are smashing them up? Most people would consider they were “inhabiting” it while on holiday and it takes some hunting to find to be “habitable” it must have fixed sewerage, a water closet, and mains water.
But no questions of this sort are asked in the exam. If it said:- A 70°C Thermoplastic insulated SWA cable has 36mm² of steel armouring what is the copper equivalent S
a) 6mm² b) 10mm² c) 16mm² d) 25mm²
Now that would show you can use the book, it’s all there:- formula in table 54.7 and k1 is given table 43.1 and k2 in table 54.4 so 36x51/115=16mm² thank god it doesn’t because I for one would fail.
I don’t think anyone could comply with the BS7671:2008 without referring to it from time to time and those of us that have used the 16th Edition would need to know the changes listed pages 4 to 6 and we are only tested on the changes anyway if you have done the BS7671:2001 and yes with a lecturer pointing out the changes one can learn where one needs to look quicker than DIY but it is far easier than it was.
With the on line test allowing you to change your answer as many times as you want then by marking those where one is unsure and missing those you don’t know one does first run. Then doing those you need to look up second run and final check answer of those one is not sure on. Most people can get the pass mark required. Especially if one has also read the sample questions.
One is after all learning how to pass the exam not how to use the 17th Edition and some of the questions one will never need to know why would anyone need to know what BS EN 1648 is to comply with the red book? The questions on BS EN numbers to me is completely useless in working out if someone can use the book. It’s like a Bibliography and can’t see why we should need to refer to it in the exam but we are not learning how to use it only how to pass exam?
No it isn't. If you're going to use quotations, then rather than make up your own, why not take it from the book... p209:
"The particular requirements of this section apply to the electrical installations of caravans and motor caravans at nominal voltages not exceeding 230/440 V a.c. or 48 V d.c.
They do apply to those electrical circuits and equipment intended for the use of the caravan for habitation purposes."
Correct. That's why this section exists
In fact such premises are not included in this section:
"They do not apply to the electrical installations of mobile homes, residential park homes and transportable units."
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your quite right of course I miss read I can only apologize.
I must read more carefully
I will not repeat 100 times but I am doing my lines for it.
Thank you dingbat
If it makes you feel better, you're not the first.
Having two sentences, one above the other which start with:
"They do apply to...." and
"They do not apply to..."
Makes it very easy for your eye to pick up the 'not from the sentence below.
But the point about reading vs understanding is important. Very many exam questions are answered incorrectly simply because of this lack of attention.
A common problem is people not reading all of the regulation in question.
Another issue is the lack of understanding of the way the regs are set out, which leads to people applying requirements where they are not necesary. That is, applying a regulation to a general application where that regulation is only written for a specific circumstance .
I think everybody needs to go on courses periodically, to make sure that their understanding is actually in line with the requirements. And, if my experience is anything to go by, sparks really do need to keep in touch with the basic principles - so many errors are made because tradesmen like to repeat simple solutions, rather than apply fundamental principles to each situation. Then a 'Chinese Whispers' effect sets in, where minor misunderstandings eventually evolve into fictitious regulations, which spread like viruses through the trade.
Having two sentences, one above the other which start with:
"They do apply to...." and
"They do not apply to..."
Makes it very easy for your eye to pick up the 'not from the sentence below.
But the point about reading vs understanding is important. Very many exam questions are answered incorrectly simply because of this lack of attention.
A common problem is people not reading all of the regulation in question.
Another issue is the lack of understanding of the way the regs are set out, which leads to people applying requirements where they are not necesary. That is, applying a regulation to a general application where that regulation is only written for a specific circumstance .
I think everybody needs to go on courses periodically, to make sure that their understanding is actually in line with the requirements. And, if my experience is anything to go by, sparks really do need to keep in touch with the basic principles - so many errors are made because tradesmen like to repeat simple solutions, rather than apply fundamental principles to each situation. Then a 'Chinese Whispers' effect sets in, where minor misunderstandings eventually evolve into fictitious regulations, which spread like viruses through the trade.
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Very well put dingbat I do agree. It has not been helped by the removal of regulations I was interested in the old regulations as to cooker main switches one notices something new but not so much when removed. And with all the building regulations it is easy to think it must be in one of those.
The numah eye soed not read lndividuai settrel but slockb of settersl, a tors of pre-emptive text. **** seadl to sistakem geinb eadm so the tecres is to dear ylowls and you lilw eakt eorm in.
Translation.
The human eye does not read individual letters but blocks of letters, a sort of pre-emptive text. This leads to mistakes being made so the secret is to read slowly and you will take more in.
How many of you read the first paragraph at just below 'normal' speed?
Translation.
The human eye does not read individual letters but blocks of letters, a sort of pre-emptive text. This leads to mistakes being made so the secret is to read slowly and you will take more in.
How many of you read the first paragraph at just below 'normal' speed?
It's not that much worse than some of the posts we see on here where the author writes like that normally.....
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It's not that much worse than some of the posts we see on here where the author writes like that normally.....
I'm thinking Moz here....!!
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