Why are both wires live and not just one?

[Taylortwocities]

Sprogginz

So you have removed the socket and now you should have six wires sticking out of the wall.

Is it because I've unintentionally turned a ring circuit into (if possible) 2 radial circuits?

Yes you have, and that is not right.

You need to re-connected them so that the ring is again complete. It is important that you do this, even if the removal of the socket is temporary.

You need three bits of insulated terminal block. Connect the red to the red, the black to the black and the green/yellow to the green/yellow./

Or brown/blue, gn/yell if you have newer wiring.

The terminal block should be capable of carrying a current of not less than 20 amps.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

So now please stop smoking that pot and see where am I wrong? I will put my money where my mouth is. can you?

The point he is making is that neutral is a live conductor. The line/phase conductor is no more a live conductor than a neutral conductor. This is fundamental in the Definitions.

The point I understand he made was that instead of mentioning two cables, he used the word wire, a double socket should have two 2.5 T&E cables in it, so i assumed this is what he said and that he further says that when he disconnected these two cables, from one another, both lives of these two cables were still live when he assumed if he separates them the two T&E from each other, then he was expecting that one of them may be dead and only one may stay live, but this clearly isn't the case, as what he has done is broken a ring circuit where both cables are still live., we are simply confirming that he should not have expected one cable to be live and the other to be dead, and rightly so he confirmed that he was surprised that both were live, which is what we confirmed they will be and he should reconnect them using nylon terminal blocks of at least 20amp capacity and rejoin appropriate wires in each cable ( i.e. red to red, black to black and earths to earths) These are old wiring colours.

it is all to do with how one xplains and how one understands, so why tell me what am I on?

 

[Mikefromlondon]

What's left a bit confused and no doubt the limit of my knowledge is that I was assuming it was a ring circuit (it was rewired several years ago by the previous owner) so therefore the power to the following sockets should've have been disconnected too? I didn't want this to happen but I'm just trying to figure why they still work.

1. He was assuming it was a ring circuit. and yes we all confirmed it was. And he was under a wrong impression that power to following or proceeding sockets would be dead if he disconnected wires from one another in one of the double sockets, but this does not happen on a ring circuit but does happen on a radial circuit, where if you disconnected wires on two cables (in and out) that is where all the following sockets on that radial circuit would lose power and one wire would then become NOT LIVE, or show dead. so he was thinking the opposite way.

2. so therefore the power to the following sockets should've have been disconnected too? I didn't want this to happen. And as expected this did not happen, both wires were still alive,
(So it did not happen because that is what he wanted but was not expecting, it was wired up as a ring circuit, and when disconnected wires from one another in one of the sockets, that ring circuit becomes two seperate radial circuits, which he understands) but what he didn't understand was why both wires were live, yet he didn't want the power to other sockets disrupted

3. Only that he did not understand fully the concept of a ring circuit, and was confused why he was still getting live on both wires , yet he also wanted other sockets still powered up, as thought any sockets upstream may lose power, and they didn't .

4. So OP's question was not an easy to understand and yet i understood, so why ask me what have I been drinking?

 

[securespark]

MFL:

Yes, ordinarily, a neutral conductor is at zero potential, but if there is a break in the circuit, it can show a potential.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I have not read the whole thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.
To the OP: If it is ring final circuit you have disconnected and you have two live line conductors (ie red or browns)? They should both be live if the circuit is not broken else where, as both line conductors go back to the protective device at the board!

 

[Sprogginz]

It's all reconnected inside a choc box now.

When it was first disconnected I had the intention of reconnecting it that day but a lot of things were happening and totally forgot about it!

It wasn't until I lifted a big mirror out of the way the other day that I remembered it was actually there! It was then I started to think about it but never really trust myself which is why I ask you guys for clarification!

BTW, is it 30amp for a ring and 20amp for a radial? It's just that I need to add a junction box for a spur so I'm assuming it should be a 30amp one?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[EFLImpudence]

BTW, is it 30amp for a ring

30A fuse or 32A MCB

and 20amp for a radial?

Not necessarily. It depends which cable is used.

It's just that I need to add a junction box for a spur so I'm assuming it should be a 30amp one?

A minimum of 20A rating is required on the ring.


Why a junction box? Can you not run it from a socket - or fit another socket?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

When it was first disconnected I had the intention of reconnecting it that day but a lot of things were happening and totally forgot about it!

But the point is you should never, ever, EVER have disconnected it unless you were going to leave the circuit switched off. If the MCB is to be on, then the ring must always, always, ALWAYS be complete

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Let me ask you this question in honest, for my own peace of mind, what if one has no choice, and needs to disrupt the ring mains, like adding an extension and the wires are in the way, so can one then
break the ring mains and convert it into one or two radial circuits, each with an appropriate value fuse or MCB, until such time when the extension is completed and ring mains can then be re-established and protected by a single MCB.

I just want an opinion. What would you do?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Let me ask you this question in honest, for my own peace of mind, what if one has no choice, and needs to disrupt the ring mains, like adding an extension and the wires are in the way,

It could be temporarily rerouted to by-pass the work.

so can one then break the ring mains and convert it into one or two radial circuits, each with an appropriate value fuse or MCB, until such time when the extension is completed and ring mains can then be re-established and protected by a single MCB.

Yes you can do that.
It may be that two 25A (max. for 2.5mm²) radials are more useful than one 32A ring.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Let me ask you this question in honest, for my own peace of mind, what if one has no choice, and needs to disrupt the ring mains, like adding an extension and the wires are in the way, so can one then
break the ring mains and convert it into one or two radial circuits, each with an appropriate value fuse or MCB, until such time when the extension is completed and ring mains can then be re-established and protected by a single MCB.

I just want an opinion. What would you do?

You could, if you were pushed for ways in the board, you could have both split legs protected by the same device providing it was no greater than the safe current carrying capacity of the cable.(allow for any de-rating with regards to reference method of install)

 

[Taylortwocities]

break the ring mains and convert it into one or two radial circuits, each with an appropriate value fuse or MCB, until such time when the extension is completed and ring mains can then be re-established and protected by a single MCB.

Strictly speaking though, that would constitute the creation of two new circuits which, by definition, is notifiable work! Whereas additions to a ring final in not notifiable.
I have never come across a stituation where what you suggest is necessary. New cables can be run, plastered in etc with final connections made later - usually in the back box of one of the existing sockets.

 

[PBC_1966]

Strictly speaking though, that would constitute the creation of two new circuits which, by definition, is notifiable work!

Temporarily downrate to a 20A or even 16A MCB leaving both ends of the "ring" in that same MCB - No new circuit created! (If anyone really cares, considering that in a very short while it will be back to a 30/32A ring and nobody else will ever know.)

 

[Risteard]

Strictly speaking though, that would constitute the creation of two new circuits which, by definition, is notifiable work!

Temporarily downrate to a 20A or even 16A MCB leaving both ends of the "ring" in that same MCB - No new circuit created! (If anyone really cares, considering that in a very short while it will be back to a 30/32A ring and nobody else will ever know.)

The only problem is changing the protective device would still technically make it the provision of a new circuit.

 

[PBC_1966]

The only problem is changing the protective device would still technically make it the provision of a new circuit.

I wouldn't consider it to be, but we've debated the question of "What is a new circuit?" at some length before, since the notification rules don't actually specify what "new circuit" is supposed to mean:

//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/when-is-a-new-circuit-not-a-new-circuit.447885/