oilman said:
Quality! DIY electrical work for population control! Evolution will breed a super race of qualified sparks! The NICEIC are taking over the world!!!
Why has DIYNOT got a electrics forum?
- Thread starter Bazdaa
- Start date
Quality! DIY electrical work for population control! Evolution will breed a super race of qualified sparks! The NICEIC are taking over the world!!!
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Any responsible electrician would feel obliged by fact of his training to give warning and if he feels the poster is liable to injure themselves to suggest that they not attempt the work themselves, of course that is all he can do advise as it is up to the individual what they do after that.
Don't kick over the beehive when you go gathering honey.
I'm sure I will attract some brick bats but at the risk of that, I would like to add that as an old but newly qualified electrician I have found the comments by many, if not all, the seasoned electricians, that give of their time freely, to be extremely helpful. Only the few posters, who consistently refuse to accept the sound advice given, could take offence from the gentle ribbing they receive.
Don't let one dissenter ruin an excellent forum.
I'm sure I will attract some brick bats but at the risk of that, I would like to add that as an old but newly qualified electrician I have found the comments by many, if not all, the seasoned electricians, that give of their time freely, to be extremely helpful. Only the few posters, who consistently refuse to accept the sound advice given, could take offence from the gentle ribbing they receive.
Don't let one dissenter ruin an excellent forum.
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why do b & c_ _ p and all the others sell electrical,gas bits and bobs you either have to be part p registered or corgi to play with?
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Kendor - As you will see, I have no problem with what your saying.
Qedelec - I dont think your fully clued up on this. But then its your opinion.
I'm not going to repeat it again. But please look at what we are saying here.
P.S. As I previously said. This is one of the best DIY forums around.
Bazdaa
Qedelec - I dont think your fully clued up on this. But then its your opinion.
I'm not going to repeat it again. But please look at what we are saying here.
P.S. As I previously said. This is one of the best DIY forums around.
Bazdaa
They don't.punchjoshua said:
You don't.
The new Building Regulations do not impose any limitations on what DIYers can do, only on what they can do without notification.
And there never has been any prohibition on DIY gas work. The requirements in the Gas Regulations for CORGI membership only apply to people who do it for reward.
Keyplayer you are wasting your time. Big_Spark is not interested in reason, logic and facts on this issue.keyplayer said:
His position is partly influenced by financial self-interest, and partly by the huge chip he has on his shoulder about the lowly (as he sees it) status of electricians.
Note that the only example of a serious problem he's ever encountered is 20 years old.
In that time, I wonder how many fatal car crash scenes he has driven past? In that time, approximately 70,000 people will have died on the roads.
I
Igorian
Even the 'experts' can get it wrong. When I moved into my new house, I called a National company and asked them to do an inspection of my electrics. It failed, apparently because a radial circuit had been wired with 4mm instead of 6mm cable. As the wiring was accessible, I decided to do the work myself and then have it re-inspected. Having bought the cable, I was intrigued to find it was the same size as the original. More serious than this, the shower circuit began to trip after a few seconds of use (didn't notice until the next day). Somehow, the guy had managed to connect it to a 32A MCB instead of the 45A. The 45A was now protecting my kitchen.
The plumber who came to service my Potterton Statesman boiler (recommended by a National who don't do oil) left it leaking with the power cable resting in a nice pool of water. When he came back to rectify it, he apologised and said that he had been out on the p*ss the night before so he left his apprentice to do the work, apparently under his supervision.
The plumber who came to service my Potterton Statesman boiler (recommended by a National who don't do oil) left it leaking with the power cable resting in a nice pool of water. When he came back to rectify it, he apologised and said that he had been out on the p*ss the night before so he left his apprentice to do the work, apparently under his supervision.
There are a couple of sub-topics here, so without specifically quoting anybody...
Q)Why have a DIY Electrical Forum if all you're going to do is say "get an electrician"?
A) Some electrical work is too complicated, or requires too much knowledge, to be safely done by the unskilled and inexperienced, and after a while you develop almost a "6th sense" that tells you if the particular questioner is up to scratch. It's far from perfect, but I'd rather err on the side of caution than gung-ho. A real problem is that there are some tasks, e.g. CU replacement, rewire, sub-main to outbuildings, where there will often be holes in the person's knowledge of which he is completely unaware. In other words he doesn't know that there are some things he doesn't know, and asking questions about areas where he realises he needs to know more will not fill in the holes he cannot even see.
On a personal level, I believe passionately that nobody should ever do any electrical work, not even change a plug, without understanding the "why" of what they are doing. So whilst it would be possible for someone to add a 2-way switch on the basis of "insert the brown wire into L1" etc step-by-step instructions (what I've termed "electrics-by-numbers"), I'd rather they went and looked at drawings and gained an understanding of how it works. This is why I'll often say "see the For Reference topic"; it's not because I'm being dismissive, it's because I want them to learn what to do, not be told what to do, if that makes sense.
Q)Why so many references to Part P?
A) The fact is, that like it or not, Part P exists, and it is the law of the land. I think it is reasonable for people giving advice on building matters, e.g. drains, structures etc, to assume that everyone knows that the Building Regulations exist. But although discussing Part P has probably consumed more man hours than the hunt for free p*rn, it is still less than a year old, and there are still people turning up who don't know of it. There will come a time when we can stop mentioning it, but I don't think we are there yet.
My position is that I don't care if people (as private individuals, not professional electricians) obey the law when it comes to notification, but I believe that any decision to break the law should be theirs, and that it should be an informed decision. They should not be allowed to blunder into a position of having broken the law through ignorance.
Q) Should DIY electrical work be banned or seriously restricted?
I do all sorts of DIY, with varying degrees of competence, and for that which I can’t, or don’t want to do, I will use a professional. I’m a good painter and decorator, reasonable-ish carpenter as long as I know my limits, a crap gardener (mostly because of lack of interest), not much of a plumber (mostly because of lack of need to ever develop those skills), I’m a fabulous cook, I don’t do building/plastering/tiling, and, I genuinely believe, I am a perfectly competent electrician.
So yes, there is a great deal of self-interest in my position, but I make no apologies for that because my self-interest is the same as that of millions of other people.
I’m going to start building my case by looking at why people do DIY. As I see it there are 4 main reasons.
1) For enjoyment. Man is a tool-using animal, and there is a great deal of satisfaction to be gained from working with one’s hands to create something, and being able to stand back and say "I did that", particularly for people whose job isn’t like that. Gardening is the classic example of this - it would be a bit odd for someone to make continually rewiring their house or changing the wallpaper a hobby, but gardening is something that millions of people do for pleasure, and spend a lot of time doing it. But it is a form of DIY - they could always get a gardener to do it for them, and have the same end result to admire, but they choose to DIY because they enjoy it.
2) To save money. Pretty self evident.
3) To get a better job done. I’m not claiming that all DIYers will always do a better job than any professional, that would be ludicrous, as anybody who’d ever seen my bricklaying would be quick to point out. But there are times when a DIYer will achieve better results because of the amount of time they can lavish on a job. It’s often related to #2 - time is money, and there will be instances where someone for whom that is not true can do a better job than someone for whom it is. Take painting for example. The amount of work involved in, say, preparing a wooden window for repainting, particularly if it’s got lots of small panes, and decorative mouldings is huge. Nobody could make an economic proposition based around charging for doing it if they were truly going to do it as thoroughly as possible.
4) Convenience. There are times when the best way to get a job done is the 8AM start, bish-bosh all day long approach of the pro, and there are times when that level of disruption is unwelcome. Decorating is one example – DIYing at evenings and weekends will for sure take longer, but it will also be a lot less intrusive and disruptive to daily routine.
However, we do, of course, have to moderate the above for safety and community interest reasons. You can’t let anybody who knows how to mix mortar throw up whatever construction they want – you have to ensure that it is structurally sound, that it fits into planning rules etc etc. Even with gardening we’ve seen how regulation is needed to deal with the menace of Leylandii, and how H&S concerns have justifiable restrictions on what chemicals can be used and so on.
But in all instances it is the responsibility of Government to impose as light a touch as possible, and to only intervene when there is a compelling reason to do so. CORGI regulations are often used as a parallel when arguing about Part P, but ironically the Gas Regs don’t prohibit DIY gas work, as long as it is “competently” done. I’ve never done anything with gas appliances apart from plugging a cooker into a bayonet fitting, so I don’t know how reasonable it is for a DIYer to acquire the necessary knowledge and skills, but I do know the following:
1) The potential for a catastrophic disaster with gas is much higher. Faulty electrical work might result in someone getting a shock, faulty gas work might result in a whole household dying in their sleep. A dodgy electrical connection might result in a small fire, and yes, I do realise that small fires can become large ones. A dodgy gas connection might result in an explosion, and there is no such thing as a small gas explosion.
I don’t know how many problems arise from non-CORGI gas work, nor what percentage of them are due to work that should have been done by a registered person as opposed to genuine DIY work that went wrong, but unless it can be shown that DIY work is a major problem I’d say that the rules were about right.
2) Gas is much less pervasive and much more static in people’s homes than electricity. By that I mean that there are millions of houses where there are but one or two gas appliances (boiler & cooker), once installed they remain there for several years – longer, one hopes, if they’re well made. They don’t get moved about, or frequently replaced as part of a makeover. Gas pipes do not run throughout the house, and they don’t very often need rerouting. People don’t want to add the ability to control their gas cooker from two places. They don’t have gas lights that they’d like to replace with some stainless steel ones they bought in B&Q. They don’t want to run gas out to the garden and the shed to power lights, fountains and tools.
In short, there is nothing like the same need for people to make changes to their gas installation as there is with their electrical one. Restricting DIY electrical work is hugely more invasive than restricting DIY gas work.
3) Gas appliances are expensive, and in proportion to the cost of the item, the cost of paying a CORGI registered person to install a condensing boiler is a great deal less, and therefore a great deal more reasonable to impose, than the comparative situation of having to pay a professional electrician to install a socket costing a couple of pounds. In the first case the labour costs are less than the cost of the item, in the second they are 10 or 20 times more.
Given that the impact of restrictions on DIY electrical work will therefore be felt by a very large number of people, and will have significant financial impact on a very large number of people, it is vital that there should be a compelling reason to implement restrictions.
In all activities that we fallible people undertake, there are risks, and the rules to moderate these activities in order to reduce the risks must be balanced against the costs, both financial and in terms of individual liberty. For example, on average around 10 people a day are killed on the roads in this country. The government rightly seeks to minimise road casualties by making drivers pass a test, imposing limits on how fast people are allowed to drive, how much alcohol they can drink, where they can drive, where they can park, how safe a condition their vehicle must be in and so on. They also encourage and force car manufacturers to make their products safer. They spend millions on public awareness campaigns. But could anyone argue that they could not achieve a dramatic reduction in casualties by imposing a blanket 20mph speed limit? By an outright ban on driving cars when there is fog, or ice and snow? By raising the minimum driving age to 30? By banning the sale and use of motorcycles? All of these measures would undoubtedly save lives, but none of them would be introduced.
Why? Because their impact would be too severe. However rational a case you can make for banning motorcycles, ultimately you can’t deny people that choice. The limits on personal mobility, choice of lifestyle, choice of job – all items of fundamental importance to individual liberty would be immense if you restricted people to travelling at 20mph, or staying at home for days or weeks at a time in winter. The impact on the economy would be catastrophic.
Ladders. In 1999, about 28,000 people were killed or injured falling from ladders and steps in the home. We could probably save quite a few lives, and a lot of economic costs, if we banned the use of ladders & steps. Would anybody be up for that? Would preventing people from changing their own lamps, painting their own houses, using their lofts etc be a price worth paying in order to save lives, or would it be an unwarranted intrusion?
It is often claimed that people are at risk from poor workmanship, but when asked to show produce evidence of that a typical reply is:
“Why should we need to? It’s pretty obvious that electrically unskilled persons work can put people in danger.”
Can yes, but do? I’m afraid the evidence does have to be produced, for in a free society restrictions on people’s freedoms cannot be imposed on the basis of “It’s pretty obvious” – you must be able to show that there is a severe problem.
I don’t want to be stopped from doing something that I find satisfying, I don’t want to have to pay 10-20x the cost of materials for someone to fit them, I don’t want to have to organise my domestic schedule around the efficiency needs of a tradesman when I need something done. And I suspect that neither do millions of others.
I’m not saying that no dangerous work is done – I’m saying that before you reduce my quality of life, and forcibly increase my financial outlay, and damage the business of companies that sell electrical products, you must, absolutely must, show that the amount of dangerous work is so great that it cannot be tolerated, and just like I’m not free to drive while I’m ****ed, or at 100mph down the High Street, I can’t be free to do my own wiring.
Q)Why have a DIY Electrical Forum if all you're going to do is say "get an electrician"?
A) Some electrical work is too complicated, or requires too much knowledge, to be safely done by the unskilled and inexperienced, and after a while you develop almost a "6th sense" that tells you if the particular questioner is up to scratch. It's far from perfect, but I'd rather err on the side of caution than gung-ho. A real problem is that there are some tasks, e.g. CU replacement, rewire, sub-main to outbuildings, where there will often be holes in the person's knowledge of which he is completely unaware. In other words he doesn't know that there are some things he doesn't know, and asking questions about areas where he realises he needs to know more will not fill in the holes he cannot even see.
On a personal level, I believe passionately that nobody should ever do any electrical work, not even change a plug, without understanding the "why" of what they are doing. So whilst it would be possible for someone to add a 2-way switch on the basis of "insert the brown wire into L1" etc step-by-step instructions (what I've termed "electrics-by-numbers"), I'd rather they went and looked at drawings and gained an understanding of how it works. This is why I'll often say "see the For Reference topic"; it's not because I'm being dismissive, it's because I want them to learn what to do, not be told what to do, if that makes sense.
Q)Why so many references to Part P?
A) The fact is, that like it or not, Part P exists, and it is the law of the land. I think it is reasonable for people giving advice on building matters, e.g. drains, structures etc, to assume that everyone knows that the Building Regulations exist. But although discussing Part P has probably consumed more man hours than the hunt for free p*rn, it is still less than a year old, and there are still people turning up who don't know of it. There will come a time when we can stop mentioning it, but I don't think we are there yet.
My position is that I don't care if people (as private individuals, not professional electricians) obey the law when it comes to notification, but I believe that any decision to break the law should be theirs, and that it should be an informed decision. They should not be allowed to blunder into a position of having broken the law through ignorance.
Q) Should DIY electrical work be banned or seriously restricted?
I do all sorts of DIY, with varying degrees of competence, and for that which I can’t, or don’t want to do, I will use a professional. I’m a good painter and decorator, reasonable-ish carpenter as long as I know my limits, a crap gardener (mostly because of lack of interest), not much of a plumber (mostly because of lack of need to ever develop those skills), I’m a fabulous cook, I don’t do building/plastering/tiling, and, I genuinely believe, I am a perfectly competent electrician.
So yes, there is a great deal of self-interest in my position, but I make no apologies for that because my self-interest is the same as that of millions of other people.
I’m going to start building my case by looking at why people do DIY. As I see it there are 4 main reasons.
1) For enjoyment. Man is a tool-using animal, and there is a great deal of satisfaction to be gained from working with one’s hands to create something, and being able to stand back and say "I did that", particularly for people whose job isn’t like that. Gardening is the classic example of this - it would be a bit odd for someone to make continually rewiring their house or changing the wallpaper a hobby, but gardening is something that millions of people do for pleasure, and spend a lot of time doing it. But it is a form of DIY - they could always get a gardener to do it for them, and have the same end result to admire, but they choose to DIY because they enjoy it.
2) To save money. Pretty self evident.
3) To get a better job done. I’m not claiming that all DIYers will always do a better job than any professional, that would be ludicrous, as anybody who’d ever seen my bricklaying would be quick to point out. But there are times when a DIYer will achieve better results because of the amount of time they can lavish on a job. It’s often related to #2 - time is money, and there will be instances where someone for whom that is not true can do a better job than someone for whom it is. Take painting for example. The amount of work involved in, say, preparing a wooden window for repainting, particularly if it’s got lots of small panes, and decorative mouldings is huge. Nobody could make an economic proposition based around charging for doing it if they were truly going to do it as thoroughly as possible.
4) Convenience. There are times when the best way to get a job done is the 8AM start, bish-bosh all day long approach of the pro, and there are times when that level of disruption is unwelcome. Decorating is one example – DIYing at evenings and weekends will for sure take longer, but it will also be a lot less intrusive and disruptive to daily routine.
However, we do, of course, have to moderate the above for safety and community interest reasons. You can’t let anybody who knows how to mix mortar throw up whatever construction they want – you have to ensure that it is structurally sound, that it fits into planning rules etc etc. Even with gardening we’ve seen how regulation is needed to deal with the menace of Leylandii, and how H&S concerns have justifiable restrictions on what chemicals can be used and so on.
But in all instances it is the responsibility of Government to impose as light a touch as possible, and to only intervene when there is a compelling reason to do so. CORGI regulations are often used as a parallel when arguing about Part P, but ironically the Gas Regs don’t prohibit DIY gas work, as long as it is “competently” done. I’ve never done anything with gas appliances apart from plugging a cooker into a bayonet fitting, so I don’t know how reasonable it is for a DIYer to acquire the necessary knowledge and skills, but I do know the following:
1) The potential for a catastrophic disaster with gas is much higher. Faulty electrical work might result in someone getting a shock, faulty gas work might result in a whole household dying in their sleep. A dodgy electrical connection might result in a small fire, and yes, I do realise that small fires can become large ones. A dodgy gas connection might result in an explosion, and there is no such thing as a small gas explosion.
I don’t know how many problems arise from non-CORGI gas work, nor what percentage of them are due to work that should have been done by a registered person as opposed to genuine DIY work that went wrong, but unless it can be shown that DIY work is a major problem I’d say that the rules were about right.
2) Gas is much less pervasive and much more static in people’s homes than electricity. By that I mean that there are millions of houses where there are but one or two gas appliances (boiler & cooker), once installed they remain there for several years – longer, one hopes, if they’re well made. They don’t get moved about, or frequently replaced as part of a makeover. Gas pipes do not run throughout the house, and they don’t very often need rerouting. People don’t want to add the ability to control their gas cooker from two places. They don’t have gas lights that they’d like to replace with some stainless steel ones they bought in B&Q. They don’t want to run gas out to the garden and the shed to power lights, fountains and tools.
In short, there is nothing like the same need for people to make changes to their gas installation as there is with their electrical one. Restricting DIY electrical work is hugely more invasive than restricting DIY gas work.
3) Gas appliances are expensive, and in proportion to the cost of the item, the cost of paying a CORGI registered person to install a condensing boiler is a great deal less, and therefore a great deal more reasonable to impose, than the comparative situation of having to pay a professional electrician to install a socket costing a couple of pounds. In the first case the labour costs are less than the cost of the item, in the second they are 10 or 20 times more.
Given that the impact of restrictions on DIY electrical work will therefore be felt by a very large number of people, and will have significant financial impact on a very large number of people, it is vital that there should be a compelling reason to implement restrictions.
In all activities that we fallible people undertake, there are risks, and the rules to moderate these activities in order to reduce the risks must be balanced against the costs, both financial and in terms of individual liberty. For example, on average around 10 people a day are killed on the roads in this country. The government rightly seeks to minimise road casualties by making drivers pass a test, imposing limits on how fast people are allowed to drive, how much alcohol they can drink, where they can drive, where they can park, how safe a condition their vehicle must be in and so on. They also encourage and force car manufacturers to make their products safer. They spend millions on public awareness campaigns. But could anyone argue that they could not achieve a dramatic reduction in casualties by imposing a blanket 20mph speed limit? By an outright ban on driving cars when there is fog, or ice and snow? By raising the minimum driving age to 30? By banning the sale and use of motorcycles? All of these measures would undoubtedly save lives, but none of them would be introduced.
Why? Because their impact would be too severe. However rational a case you can make for banning motorcycles, ultimately you can’t deny people that choice. The limits on personal mobility, choice of lifestyle, choice of job – all items of fundamental importance to individual liberty would be immense if you restricted people to travelling at 20mph, or staying at home for days or weeks at a time in winter. The impact on the economy would be catastrophic.
Ladders. In 1999, about 28,000 people were killed or injured falling from ladders and steps in the home. We could probably save quite a few lives, and a lot of economic costs, if we banned the use of ladders & steps. Would anybody be up for that? Would preventing people from changing their own lamps, painting their own houses, using their lofts etc be a price worth paying in order to save lives, or would it be an unwarranted intrusion?
It is often claimed that people are at risk from poor workmanship, but when asked to show produce evidence of that a typical reply is:
“Why should we need to? It’s pretty obvious that electrically unskilled persons work can put people in danger.”
Can yes, but do? I’m afraid the evidence does have to be produced, for in a free society restrictions on people’s freedoms cannot be imposed on the basis of “It’s pretty obvious” – you must be able to show that there is a severe problem.
I don’t want to be stopped from doing something that I find satisfying, I don’t want to have to pay 10-20x the cost of materials for someone to fit them, I don’t want to have to organise my domestic schedule around the efficiency needs of a tradesman when I need something done. And I suspect that neither do millions of others.
I’m not saying that no dangerous work is done – I’m saying that before you reduce my quality of life, and forcibly increase my financial outlay, and damage the business of companies that sell electrical products, you must, absolutely must, show that the amount of dangerous work is so great that it cannot be tolerated, and just like I’m not free to drive while I’m ****ed, or at 100mph down the High Street, I can’t be free to do my own wiring.
B
Big_Spark
pickles said:
Yep, your talking rubbish...
Seriously, reducing the voltage to 115V would not make things safer, as it would increase the current being drawn on a given circuit, and until you get to a certain point, it is CURRENT that kills, not voltage.
Voltage has a part to play, you need a certain voltage in order to pass a shock through a human body, which is about 70V ac@20mA for it to be fatal..howevber such a shock will not necessarilly be fatal, it is simply the minimum for that to be a possibility.
Frequency is of little consequence, yes the frequency of the supply can cause ventricular phibrilation, however in most fatal shock the current does the damage before the heart failure as it interupts the entire nervous system of the poor unfortunate.
The US uses 60Hz for their supply network, due to this being how many seconds in a minute, I cannot remember why the Europeans settled on 50Hz, but I do knw it was for technical reasons.
I understand that some here may mention 110V supplies used on construction sites, however they are not 110V Live to Neutral. In reality they are 55V to Earth and 110V between phase conductors, there is no neutral in this system as they are centre tapped Earth Transformers. Unless you touch both conductors at once, the maximum shock you will get will be 55V.
DC is a different matter, the nervous system uses electro-chemical impules for communication, and the electrical discharges are DC. This causes muscles to lock into a given position and is instantly fatal above around 75V dc, however this wil depend on the individual and the current in the circuit. Once you get to 120V dc, it is fatal in something like 90% of cases regardless of current in the circuit.
Hope this helps..
Big_Spark said:
You're separating current and voltage, and they intrinsically cannot be separated.
If we take a model of the human body as one of fixed impedance (which it isn't, but it'll do for now), then half the voltage will induce half the current. Which is safer.
Take a 1KW electric heater in varous voltages. At 230V it's 4.35 A. At 115V it's 8.7A. At 5V it's 200A. But where's the harm in touching a 5V live wire? You're not going to pull much current out of 5V, irrespective of what else is connected to it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lower volages and their corresponding higher currents create bigger voltage drops in cables; so the cables get hotter. But if we had less volts then the cables would be sized bigger to cope with that, so it probably wouldn't actually present an increased fire risk either.
Yes, but it's the current passing through you that kills you, not what happens to be flowing in the circuit at the time - that has no relevance at all.Big_Spark said:pickles said:
Yep, your talking rubbish...
Seriously, reducing the voltage to 115V would not make things safer, as it would increase the current being drawn on a given circuit, and until you get to a certain point, it is CURRENT that kills, not voltage.
According to Wikepedia, the US use 60Hz because Tesla thought it was the best frequency, and Europe uses 50Hz because AEG had a near monopoly, and they made theirs 50Hz because 60 didn't fit into the unit sequence 1, 2, 5,....
No - the Americans use 60Hz because that is the frequency of their AC supply.pickles said:
And they use AC for the electric chair as it was invented by Edison's company. And they chose to use AC as their own power distribution system was DC. They were getting competition in this area from Westinghouse who were doing AC, and suffering badly due to the fact that AC was greatly superior.
Edison, never a man to care much for truth, started a campaign claiming that AC was dangerous, tried to get it outlawed, and as part and parcel of all that ended up using AC for the first electric chair in order to show just how dangerous it was....
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