Worcester + Wave = constantly running pump ??

[Paul Ryan]

Got an email from Worcester Bosch confirming the sofware has been reverted back to 02.18.02

From tech support
Thank you for your continued patience with this matter.

We can now confirm that a firmware rollback has been carried out on your Worcester Wave, your firmware version will now be 02.18.02.

If you would like to discuss this any further then we would suggest calling our controls team on 0330 123 3641.



Regards,



Technical Support
Worcester, Bosch Group

 

[Jreb]

Got an email from Worcester Bosch confirming the sofware has been reverted back to 02.18.02

From tech support
Thank you for your continued patience with this matter.

We can now confirm that a firmware rollback has been carried out on your Worcester Wave, your firmware version will now be 02.18.02.

If you would like to discuss this any further then we would suggest calling our controls team on 0330 123 3641.



Regards,



Technical Support
Worcester, Bosch Group

Just to check, is everything still as it should be with the wave? After months of telling me there is an issue with the EasyControl they are now saying it’s ‘just me’... so back to this again, sigh.

Got an appointment tomorrow to look at the boiler for some reason but have been told them will fit a wave of the problem isn’t clear.

Thanks

 

[Paul Ryan]

Just to check, is everything still as it should be with the wave? After months of telling me there is an issue with the EasyControl they are now saying it’s ‘just me’... so back to this again, sigh.

Got an appointment tomorrow to look at the boiler for some reason but have been told them will fit a wave of the problem isn’t clear.

Thanks

Hi
Just checked our software version on the Wave and it is still 02.18.02 so all should be OK but the issue with the pump constantly running only occurs when we run the central heating and the heating hasnt been on for months now. I can confirm that when they rolled back the software to 02.18.02 it was working correctly.

 

[fixitflav]

Due to the nature of weather compensation your room temperature may be higher or lower than the desired room temperature because it is no longer a thermostat, this is to be expected. If the room temperature is drastically above or below the desired temperature then making some adjustments to the parameters should help.

That sounds crazy to me. I think it should work by looking at outdoor temperature, and varying the control-stat setpoint in accordance with a inbuilt (preferably adjustable) scheme. The boiler firing on/off, or modulating if it has that feature, to maintain that setpoint. The boiler and pump stopping when roomstat temperature is reached. To be more sophisticated, there could be further adjustment to the control-stat based on measured room temperature, but in either case you get room temperature as set on the roomstat.

PS just noticed I'd already commented on this in #56 I still think it's crazy!

 

[Paul Ryan]

I am rather annoyed to report that after the latest recent firmware / software update to version 02.21.00 the issue of the pump running constantly has returned. I have studied this evening what is going on. The thermostat turns the boiler flame off 0.5 degrees before the set temperature and I assume Worcester Bosch expect the latent heat to get the system to reach the set temp. The pump runs constantly trying to reach the set temp but of course the latent heat in the system is rapidly cooling and has little affect maybe raising the temp another 0.1 to 0.2 degrees. The result is the pump runs constantly. As I sit here it is now 20 minutes since the boiler turned off and the pump is still running the radiators are not luke warm and have no effect on the thermostat. I guess the pump will run until 10pm when the programmed set temp drops to 10 degrees.

I have complained to Worcester Bosch. It can't be legal to update software without my permission as the thermostat is mine and not on rental from them, on software version 02.18.2 it worked perfect. Why don't they test software properly before release and ifI set a target temp the boiler should run until that temp is reached.

Can anyone recommend an old fashioned 5/2 or 7 day combined programmer / thermostat that will work with a Greenstar 30CDi classic system boiler.

 

[Paul Sheard]

Hello there Paul.

Firstly - thanks to everyone for this post which I have stumbled across this morning after my own WB 34CDI/Wave setup really started to frustrate me the other weekend. I have always heard the pump over the years (installed May 2015) but something different seemed to be happening. I have run some tests this week and like the posts from 2018 my Wave cuts the central heating off at say 18.1c when the target is 19c. I then have the pump running all the time unless :-

1. The wave app eventually reaches 19c and it turns off
2. I drop the wave target temp to say 17.5c and it turns off straight away

I am therefore wondering as your last post from Aug this year (after a two year gap) mentioned version 02.21.00 whether you have any idea when that installed onto your Wave? I checked and mine has the same version. I reckon I've had the other duff versions over the years so clearly need to speak to WB and get them to replace my unit with a different model as it seems the 02.18.02 version my current Wave model cannot be reinstalled never to be updated again.

Has anyone else reached a final conclusion here with WB replacing with a diff model that works?

Cheers all, Paul.

 

[Paul Ryan]

Hi Paul

They can revert the software back to 02.18.02 as they have done it in the past when the software didn't work much the same as the situation we are in again. So far I have had an email which is copied below. Best thing to do is complain they will argue that is working as it should but it isn't as it should not turn the heating off until it meets the target temp set by the user. They argue that the latent heat will bring the temp up to the set temp by continuing to run the pump but aswe have both found the latent heat will not heat the room up by another 0.9c. And how can they possibly know with different systems what the capabilities are for the latent heat to raise temperature. They even once told me my radiators must be undersize. I can only assume the software was updated over the summer when we don't use the heating.

Dear Mr Ryan

Thank you for your enquiry.

We have escalated your query to our technical liaison officer, we are currently awaiting a response and will be in contact with you shortly.



Technical Support
Worcester, Bosch Group

Opening Times
Monday to Friday › 07:00 till 20:00 Saturday › 08:30 till 16:00

Telephone
Technical Support › 0330 123 3366 Controls Helpline › 0330 123 3641
Renewables › 0330 123 9229 Stoves › 0330 123 2445
Commercial › 0330 123 0165

Email
Technical › [email protected]
Rewewables › [email protected]
ErP› [email protected]

 

[Paul Sheard]

Hello Paul,

Thanks for the quick response.

When you say you've had an email I take it that is recent? I will contact them and also state of another issue of when the target temp is reached the Wave continues to fire the CH every few mins (stays on for 5secs) then goes off again which of course triggers the normal 3min run of the pump. For example:-

Target temp on app set to 16.5 from 8am as per programme

8.35am room temp drops to 16.4 so heating fires up
8.36am 16.4 on app and heating goes back to stand-by
8.39am pump shuts off
8.47am 16.5 on app and heating fires up (why when it's at the right temp...aarrghhhh....never did this before)
8.48am 16.5 on app - back to stand-by
8.51am pump shuts off
9.09am 16.5 on app - heating back on. Straight away app reads 16.6 and 20secs later back on stand-by
9.13am pump shuts off

I reckon this issue is down to 02.21.00. It is a pile of rubbish and the fact they state latent heat will get you to the target is a joke. In my simple head it means it is sending cooler water around the system which surely cools rads down quicker and hence your heating comes back on too early.

As this has been going for years I'm tempted to just replace the Wave with something else but I will contact them and see if they can push the 02.18.02 to my Wave and I'll then disconnect it from the internet. I'll then just use the unit on the wall to turn the heating off/on as and when we need it. Anything to stop the noise from the pump/cooling rads.

Cheers, Paul.

 

[Gasguru]

Bin it an use a simple on/off stat and TRVs etc.

The more you understand how these systems operate the more you realise how flawed they operate given less than ideal circumstances....there are just too many variables to screw up the algorithm.

I stumbled across this chap... http://www.pybloggers.com/2016/02/hacking-the-worcester-wave-thermostat-in-python-part-1/ (there's 3 parts).

What's concerning is the might of Worcester/Bosch (who must have a significant coding team) are so reliant on open source code for the most simple tasks (screen graphics etc.)

It doesn't say much for confidence in them understanding PID control etc. Of course it may be the case that Bosch are forcing the UK Wave to use the same software as Germany (ie. pumps on 24/7).

 

[Paul Ryan]

Yea the email was last week

 

[Paul Sheard]

Hello again,

Thanks Paul for confirming when you emailed - would you mind passing on the actual email address pls so I can mail them?

Gasguru - bit technical all of that but I know enough to wonder why like you say a company of the size of WB are using opensource code.

Just rang WB Tech support on 0330 123 3366 and then fella who answered the phone has no experience of this issue. I find that very hard to believe. Maybe I should have run the Controls team who he'll pass the query to for them to call me. I just hope I don't get the same not heard of that issue from them.

Cheers, Paul.

 

[Gasguru]

There's nothing necessarily wrong with using open source code...many governments use Firefox/LibreOffice etc and likewise a considerable amount of embedded software is written using GNU GCC etc .

Look in the link I posted..apparently within the Wave app you can pull up a screen showing the open source code they use and some of those libraries were indeed confirmed.
I'm just surprised they would use code that they should be capable of writing themselves.

Remember when you phone a boiler manufacturer nowdays it's very likely you'll be speaking to staff that have no experience in the industry.
Much of boiler design is now contracted out with many manufacturers really just running assembly plants of components bought in, so getting real information is nigh on impossible as the design and technical info is bound up in contractural agreements and the real details are lost in translation (literally sometimes).

In the past I have stumbled across German heating forums..with Google translate you can often find essential info.

 

[Paul Sheard]

Quick update - phone call received from the WB Controls team. He himself wasn't aware of any current issues but after pinging colleagues he did confirm about issues a few years back. I can only guess that's around Spring/Summer 2018. As he requested I have since emailed [email protected] with all the detail of my issues and also included the link to this forum.

I don't know the full timeline here around the software updates but can only guess they've scuppered 02.18.02 in the Summer with 02.21.00 and we're all starting to notice. The chap at WB did say software updates are very few and far between.

More to follow....dog with a bone now!

Cheers

 

[Paul Ryan]

You are correct no one will notice until we put the heating back on and even then not everyone notices as it depends where the pump is to whether you here it. Ours is in the garage as part of a system boiler. Lets hope we get somewhere it is ridiculous that they release untested software especially when the same issue has happened before. They still haven't replied to me yet despite involving the technical liaison officer.

 

[Paul Sheard]

Nothing back from my email either Paul but very early days for mine. I'm just pleased it's 23c outside as I can't hear the pump! Mine is part of the boiler (aren't they all?) in the garage but my house is so bad sound wise I can hear the boiler from my bedroom which is the other side of the house. Sigh....

On another issue seen as we're all on here talking about central heating/boilers. My rad in my bedroom makes what can only be described as rapid "tinkering" noise when the pump shuts off - the only one in the house to make this noise. I got the rad off the wall and filled with water to try and see if any sludge was in there but nothing and guess it shouldn't as we have a Magnaclean attached to the CH return pipe below the boiler. As you can imagine with my latest issue of the CH coming on when at target temp the rad's making this noise every 10mins or so. If you happen to still be in bed it is very, very annoying.

Any ideas anyone and before anyone says it isn't trapped air = bleed rad.

Cheers, Paul.