YALE 6400 PIR question

[ahdsh]

What do you NOT understand?
I am providing a genuine service without breaking the law or without performing any tasks I am not qualified to do.
My charges are stated and I am fully public liability insured.
I have a 100% customer satisfaction record and not one client has asked for a refund under my full money back guarantee offer.
I do not have the qualifications you keep harping on about because they are NOT necessary either legally or professionally.
Do you have a HGV licence to drive your car? No... why? Can you work that one out?
If I was doing work requiring Part P or even Part P defined scope I would do the course. However I don't need to do that to add a socket unless it was outside or in a kitchen or bathroom. Guess how many of my clients have specified an alarm control panel outside or in a bathroom? NONE . . not one , zero zilch!!! If they want one in a kitchen then I use an existing socket , If they want one understairs or where an existing control panel has been then I run a socket from the existing spur.
So that makes PART P totally irrelevant to me so you can keep banging on all you like about it as it makes not ONE bit of difference to my work.
Jeez you like to get anally retentive don't you?

Putting to one side the non sequiturs that keep getting thrown in and skipping over the views held on the various systems, i read it as working on electrics per se. What the householder does to their property is their business. Being paid for services rendered puts a different twist on it.

Part P is but one aspect. Working on electrics without evidence of competency is at least foolhardy, doing so whilst being paid for said work could be argued to be contrary to the EAW regs. This covers work on domestics too.

Whilst the competency is issue is not defined in black and white terms i would argue it is a bit of a leap of faith to say it is not relevant.

The insurance company will certainly have a view if payout demanded.

Any connections I make to an existing spur are done with the correct flex (2.5 T & E) The fuse is changed if not already for a 3amp and when the socket has been added the socket is tested with a socket tester for earth impedance and the live and neutral for polarity.I am a qualified and certified PAT tester so can use the equipment required although in my case I have an upgraded tester that also gives a good - check - or urgent status of the earth loop impedance .In terms of other competency I have wired extra sockets to machinery and lighting in both domestic and previous work applications therefore having competence by experience. If the job requires any notifiable work under part P then I pass the work on or ask the householder to get an electrician in beforehand.
The draw to the socket is minimal being only Plug top adaptor type, input 230VAC 50Hz, output 9VDC, 500ma, tested to EN 60 950
Any bare earth wires are given a green/yellow sleeve from my toolbox.
I am totally confident that a three pin socket I wire up meets all the criteria required and would be happy to let any of my children or anybody elses children use the socket.

 

[Atilla]

Unfortunately, as in most walks of life, it isn't quite so simple.
It doesn't matter whether i, you or any other worker think we are competent because we have done it before it is verifying it that matters.

With all due respect PAT testing, while laudable, isn't relevant with regard to wiring installation.

Merely observations but in an area that should not be taken lightly.

 

[Lectrician]

Any connections I make to an existing spur are done with the correct flex (2.5 T & E) The fuse is changed if not already for a 3amp and when the socket has been added the socket is tested with a socket tester for earth impedance and the live and neutral for polarity.I am a qualified and certified PAT tester so can use the equipment required although in my case I have an upgraded tester that also gives a good - check - or urgent status of the earth loop impedance .In terms of other competency I have wired extra sockets to machinery and lighting in both domestic and previous work applications therefore having competence by experience. If the job requires any notifiable work under part P then I pass the work on or ask the householder to get an electrician in beforehand.
The draw to the socket is minimal being only Plug top adaptor type, input 230VAC 50Hz, output 9VDC, 500ma, tested to EN 60 950
Any bare earth wires are given a green/yellow sleeve from my toolbox.
I am totally confident that a three pin socket I wire up meets all the criteria required and would be happy to let any of my children or anybody elses children use the socket.

The bold points above in respective order.

1. I hope you not ever spur from an existing spur. You may only take a spur from an existing socket on the ring, a joint box installed on the ring, or directly from the origin of the circuit. Only one spur to originate from any of these possible connection points. This assumes a typical ring final circuit.

2. I hope you actually use flat twin and earth 6242Y cable and not a flex.

3. What is a socket tester? To comply to the regs you would be required to use an approved continuity and insulation tester, loop impedance tester and more than likely an RCD tester too. A 'socket tester' is none of these, and even if it does give an indication of earth loop impedance, this can not be relied upon as the 'socket tester' is very unlikely to be approved for such use. It can also give a very false reading if there are other issues such a problems with the insulation resistance of a circuit. This is why there is a set order to carry out the tests required before energising.

4. Owning a PAT tester or having the ability to be able to use one, and having the C&G certificate means very little, if anything when it comes to carrying out installation work.

5. The current drawn through your newly connected socket may be negligable. Does that mean that it doesn't matter how you install it? It is still a socket, it can still have other things plugged into it.

6. That matters didly to anything. It comes as part of your kit of parts and is type tested along with it all. Why does that have anything to do with your newly installed socket?

Do you also carry out the required work to bring the circuit you extend upto scratch if this is required? Do you check for the presence of the required main protective equipotential bonding? Do you check for the presence and correct operation of an RCD if required? To you affix the required warning and test labels to the consumer unit after you are done? Do you supply a minor works certificate for the addition? (still required to comply with the regulations regardless of part p).

As great as you say these alarm systems are...........I still cannot believe they plug in

 

[ahdsh]

Any connections I make to an existing spur are done with the correct flex (2.5 T & E) The fuse is changed if not already for a 3amp and when the socket has been added the socket is tested with a socket tester for earth impedance and the live and neutral for polarity.I am a qualified and certified PAT tester so can use the equipment required although in my case I have an upgraded tester that also gives a good - check - or urgent status of the earth loop impedance .In terms of other competency I have wired extra sockets to machinery and lighting in both domestic and previous work applications therefore having competence by experience. If the job requires any notifiable work under part P then I pass the work on or ask the householder to get an electrician in beforehand.
The draw to the socket is minimal being only Plug top adaptor type, input 230VAC 50Hz, output 9VDC, 500ma, tested to EN 60 950
Any bare earth wires are given a green/yellow sleeve from my toolbox.
I am totally confident that a three pin socket I wire up meets all the criteria required and would be happy to let any of my children or anybody elses children use the socket.

The bold points above in respective order.

1. I hope you not ever spur from an existing spur. You may only take a spur from an existing socket on the ring, a joint box installed on the ring, or directly from the origin of the circuit. Only one spur to originate from any of these possible connection points. This assumes a typical ring final circuit.

2. I hope you actually use flat twin and earth 6242Y cable and not a flex.

3. What is a socket tester? To comply to the regs you would be required to use an approved continuity and insulation tester, loop impedance tester and more than likely an RCD tester too. A 'socket tester' is none of these, and even if it does give an indication of earth loop impedance, this can not be relied upon as the 'socket tester' is very unlikely to be approved for such use. It can also give a very false reading if there are other issues such a problems with the insulation resistance of a circuit. This is why there is a set order to carry out the tests required before energising.

4. Owning a PAT tester or having the ability to be able to use one, and having the C&G certificate means very little, if anything when it comes to carrying out installation work.

5. The current drawn through your newly connected socket may be negligable. Does that mean that it doesn't matter how you install it? It is still a socket, it can still have other things plugged into it.

6. That matters didly to anything. It comes as part of your kit of parts and is type tested along with it all. Why does that have anything to do with your newly installed socket?

Do you also carry out the required work to bring the circuit you extend upto scratch if this is required? Do you check for the presence of the required main protective equipotential bonding? Do you check for the presence and correct operation of an RCD if required? To you affix the required warning and test labels to the consumer unit after you are done? Do you supply a minor works certificate for the addition? (still required to comply with the regulations regardless of part p).

As great as you say these alarm systems are...........I still cannot believe they plug in

1. No I never spur from another spur. As I recall you can have up to three sockets running from a spur. However I only add one.
The fused spur I use is not from the ring main as most fused spurs needed for alarms come from a single spare mcb on the consumer unit. This prevents the possibility of the ring main tripping and leaving the alarm unpowered. In that respect the circuit concerned is always going to be unstressed unless someone was to use a load of daisychained extension cables from one socket but hey . . I do what I can at my end and just get flabbergasted at what joe public does.

2. Yes flat 2.5 T & E because as you say I have no idea what someone will use the plug for once I am gone , however they would have to replace the 3amp fuse I have put in if they don't want to be dissapointed when they plug the electric fire in.

3. The circuit I have 'added' to and I use that term loosely because it was in fact a circuit that was already in use before I arrived so technically it could even be said I haven't even added any additional circuit. I have in effect simply added a 3 pin socket on to the end of the cable that originally wired into the previous control panel. I through my need for due dilligence replace old cable with new from the unpowered end of the fused spur.

4 I don't think it could be considered that my work resembles an instalation. It's simply the ending of an existing cable with a 3 pin socket so the control panels PSU can plug into it.

5. As answered above.

6. That was only mentioned because even if I put a perfect socket in place I could still plug in a crap hong kong untested uncertified transformer which could still kill someone if say its insulation failed. I pointed out that the PSUs I use are tested and type approved to prove how diligent I am.

I do carry out remedial work in line with 17th edition (which I have in my van).
The wiring if not already 2.5 T & E is changed for that. Some alarms can be almost 20 yrs old when I replace them so the wiring colours aren't as newly standardised.
There is no main protective exquipotential bonding required for the 'circuit' used. ie a single spur direct from the consumer unit mcb leading into a fused spur.
As mentioned before I am not actually adding a new circuit. So there is no addition. Simply the ending of the existing power out from the fused spur with a 3 pin socket.

And the reason they work from a 3 pin socket is becasue they user a PSU very similar to say your mobile phone charger that simply keeps the internal control panel battery charged up so that if the power fails it will last its designated 10 hrs.

 

[Atilla]

The above explanation, imho does not answer the questions. It merely explains what you do. Indeed, it actually refers to a specific instance.

From your explanations on the subject it does seem you are working to 'best practice'. Unfortunately, it is your idea of best practice. Not quite the same thing.

 

[ahdsh]

.. but the instance above is the only time I touch any wires at all. If the client wants the box where the old control panel was.

If they want it somewhere else its simply plugged in and if a plug is not convenient near the entry point the panel goes somewhere else within a protected zone and a remote keypad covers the entry instead.
Any actual new circuits I tell them to get a sparky in.

 

[Lectrician]

If they want it somewhere else its simply plugged in and if a plug is not convenient near the entry point the panel goes somewhere else.

Still makes me giggle that!

Quality kit.

 

[djrock]

Simply plugged in simply unplugged.

 

[ahdsh]

If they want it somewhere else its simply plugged in and if a plug is not convenient near the entry point the panel goes somewhere else.

Still makes me giggle that!

Quality kit.

Laugh all you may. The control panel simply needs a 9v charge so why use a 13amp supply.
If the power supply fails or the PSU is removed the control panel beeps annoyingly every 30 secs and the orange fault light comes on.

It also means you can have your panel where you want not just under the stairs.