ZIG ZAG UnSAFE zone

No, no and no no no {.....}
Do you really think nonsense like umpteen repetitions of "No" benefits anything?

Were your actions reasonable is what it's about.
And when you are looking at a socket wired without that little piece of green/yellow sleeving on the earth and trying to assess whether you think it's reasonably safe or not, how exactly are you going to know that?

Either what you have in front of you is reasonably safe or it isn't (by whatever criteria you are judging).
 
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Do you really think nonsense like umpteen repetitions of "No" benefits anything?
It's just another way of writing "no, no, and a thousand times no".


And when you are looking at a socket wired without that little piece of green/yellow sleeving on the earth and trying to assess whether you think it's reasonably safe or not, how exactly are you going to know that?
I'll make you an offer:

I will stop telling you that there is a difference between assessing what is already installed and installing something new shortly after you stop pretending that there isn't.
 
And everything else being equal, the difference in safety between the socket installed now without earth sleeving and the socket installed 45 years or so ago without it is........ What exactly?
 
Can I ask a (dumb) question after all these years? What is the actual purpose of sleeving?
Good (not dumb!) question!

I have heard of cases in which there has been a loud bang when re-energising a circuit after pushing an accessory back into a backbox when there was a generous length of unsleeved CPC behind the accessory. However, if that initial bang doesn't happen (or is avoided by appropriate dead testing before energising), then I can't see any ongoing safety issue. A bare conductor obviously (hopefully!!!) does not need sleeving to 'identify' what it is being used for.

Kind Regards, John
I suppose it might be possible that an unsleeved CPC might be almost touching a live terminal, and a current path might be completed by condensation or dust, or even movement of the CPC.
 
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I suppose it might be possible that an unsleeved CPC might be almost touching a live terminal, and a current path might be completed by condensation or dust, or even movement of the CPC.
Very little is impossible! Indeed, live and earth terminals are sometimes close, so that your 'condensation or dust' might create a current path quite apart from the CPC.

Of course, in the absence of any other problems or faults, a path from L to E should not, in itself, represent a significant 'safety' issue.

Kind Regards, John
 
It might, if a person were to be in contact with the CPC or a metal accessory front plate when that path occurred.
That wouldn't be any different from a similar fault occurring on a metal-cased appliance which is plugged into the socket and with which somebody could be in contact.
 
a path from L to E should not, in itself, represent a significant 'safety' issue.
It might, if a person were to be in contact with the CPC or a metal accessory front plate when that path occurred.
What do you envisage as the 'second point of contact' which would be at a 'dangerously' different potential from the installation's CPCs? Main bonding should make that impossible (unless you are going to invoke some of bernard's damp walls or floors!), shouldn't it. If everything is done properly it should not matter whether the potential of the 'equipotential zone' is 0V, 50V or 230V above true earth, provided the potential 'victim' is entirely within the equipotential zone ... and proper circuit design and protective devices ought to ensure that 'unsafe touch voltages' between different CPCs in the same installation cannot persist for a significant period of time.

... or am I missing something?

Kind Regards, John
 
and proper circuit design and protective devices ought to ensure that 'unsafe touch voltages' between different CPCs in the same installation cannot persist for a significant period of time.
True, but a proportion of the population will be susceptible to harm within that period until the protective devices have operated. It's a small risk, but also a small cost to mitigate it by sleeving the CPC.
 
True, but a proportion of the population will be susceptible to harm within that period until the protective devices have operated. It's a small risk, but also a small cost to mitigate it by sleeving the CPC.
It's difficult to make any probabilistic statements without being accused of being irresponsible, callous, or worse. However, the probability of (a) such an L-CPC short happening (as a result of no sleeving) AND (b) someone managing to touch two things which were, as a consequence, at dangerously different potentials AND (c) that someone being unusually susceptible to electric shock AND (d) that touching to happen within the few tens of milliseconds it would take for the device to operate would surely be as close as makes no difference to the oft-mentioned 'vaninshingly small'!

Put another way, if 'we' really felt the need to take measures to mitigate risks as incredibly small as that, and if we 'believed in' RCDs, we would probably be demanding that, rather than single RCDs, we should have 2, 3 or 5 in series, wouldn't we? (and probably also demanding 5mA or 10mA ones, because of those 'susceptible individuals' within the population?)

Kind Regards, John
 
And the cost of a couple of cm of sleeving is also 'vanishingly small', therefore the requirement to use it is proportionate.
 
And the cost of a couple of cm of sleeving is also 'vanishingly small', therefore the requirement to use it is proportionate.
I was rather expecting that!

If you really want to try to analyse this, the actually cost of installing sleeving may be small, but I doubt that it would be 'vanishingly' so. To get the sleeving out of one's toolbox, assess the required length, cut it (and then maybe re-cut it :) ) and install it probably takes, say, 15 seconds - aka about 8p of 'labour time' at £20/h. If one makes a wild guess at 20 million domestic electrical installations in the UK, each with around 80 bits of sleeved CPC, my arithmetic says that amounts to around £128 million in 'labour costs'. Do you have any thoughts on the probability that such an 'investment' will save just one life in a particular period of time?

Lest there be doubt, I personally do always sleeve CPCs. However, I am aware of the fact that there are still some remaining ('legacy'!) unsleeved CPCs dotted around my house (I occasionally come across them!), but I have never lost a second's sleep over that!

Kind Regards, John
 

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