Which is why a 2A plug should not be fitted to anything requiring more than 2A. So really the only issue is fault protection for the flex.
10a MCB lighting circuit and 2a sockets
- Thread starter tew1
- Start date
Which is why a 2A plug should not be fitted to anything requiring more than 2A. So really the only issue is fault protection for the flex.
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[/quote]
I agree - but, IMO, that is a situation which should never have been allowed to arise. Given that, for better or for worse, we do have 30/32A circuits, and given that the vast majority of the general public have no reason to believe that they cannot plug two 13A loads into a double socket, it seems crazy to me that BS1363 did not insist that double sockets had to be able to safely provide 2 x 13A continuously.
Kind Regards, John[/quote]
You might be interested to know that, in the US, there is no such thing as a ring main. All circuits are 20/15a radials (one for each room). Lights run in the imperial equivalent of 2.5mm cable on the same circuits as outlets. It is code to install two separate outlets in laundry areas. One for the dryer and one for the washer. Most non-gas dryers require a 30a dedicated hookup (like ovens). You're violating code if you plug both into the same outlet. Dishwashers and waste disposal units require dedicated lines. Also, there must be an outlet fitted on every wall 2ft or more in length. No floor area should be more than 6ft away from an outlet, and on continuous walls, outlets must be spaced 12ft apart. At least one outlet in each room should be switched from the wall (to plug in floor/table lamps). Outlets also REQUIRED outdoors and in bathrooms. No such thing as consumer unit RCD's or RCBO's. Only outlets in wet areas (kitchens, bathrooms, outdoors) require CGFI protection. In the UK, there seems to be no regulations about designing installations based on how people use things or to reduce likelihood of overload, trailing wires, extension cords e.t.c. (the things that actually cause fire and electrocution). One of my many gripes in life.
I agree - but, IMO, that is a situation which should never have been allowed to arise. Given that, for better or for worse, we do have 30/32A circuits, and given that the vast majority of the general public have no reason to believe that they cannot plug two 13A loads into a double socket, it seems crazy to me that BS1363 did not insist that double sockets had to be able to safely provide 2 x 13A continuously.
Kind Regards, John[/quote]
You might be interested to know that, in the US, there is no such thing as a ring main. All circuits are 20/15a radials (one for each room). Lights run in the imperial equivalent of 2.5mm cable on the same circuits as outlets. It is code to install two separate outlets in laundry areas. One for the dryer and one for the washer. Most non-gas dryers require a 30a dedicated hookup (like ovens). You're violating code if you plug both into the same outlet. Dishwashers and waste disposal units require dedicated lines. Also, there must be an outlet fitted on every wall 2ft or more in length. No floor area should be more than 6ft away from an outlet, and on continuous walls, outlets must be spaced 12ft apart. At least one outlet in each room should be switched from the wall (to plug in floor/table lamps). Outlets also REQUIRED outdoors and in bathrooms. No such thing as consumer unit RCD's or RCBO's. Only outlets in wet areas (kitchens, bathrooms, outdoors) require CGFI protection. In the UK, there seems to be no regulations about designing installations based on how people use things or to reduce likelihood of overload, trailing wires, extension cords e.t.c. (the things that actually cause fire and electrocution). One of my many gripes in life.
7 in the master bedroom
4 in another bedroom
6 in one of the bathrooms
1 in the hall
spaced around 4ft apart and all on dimmers.
one 60w recessed light in each walk-in.
'Mad' is builders that quote for "one pendant light" in a 50ftx20ft kitchen
I think most of us know that - but it far from unique to the US. In fact, AFAIAA, it's really only the UK and a few dusty Anglophile corners of the world (mainly remnants of 'the Empire') that ever have had ring finals.
Kind Regards, John
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[/quote]
I think most of us know that - but it far from unique to the US. In fact, AFAIAA, it's really only the UK and a few dusty Anglophile corners of the world (mainly remnants of 'the Empire') that ever have had ring finals.
Kind Regards, John[/quote]
They're long obsolete just like all the other important things that need to be changed on this dinosaur island, that people continue to ignore until they're told otherwise.
I think most of us know that - but it far from unique to the US. In fact, AFAIAA, it's really only the UK and a few dusty Anglophile corners of the world (mainly remnants of 'the Empire') that ever have had ring finals.
Kind Regards, John[/quote]
They're long obsolete just like all the other important things that need to be changed on this dinosaur island, that people continue to ignore until they're told otherwise.
If you could learn to get rid of the "/" before "quote" at the start of your attempts at quoting, your post might possibly become at least half readable.
Kind Regards, John
Look at your previous post. The very first bit is [/quote]. Go back and edit your post (just click on the button which says 'Edit') and remove the '/' from it, so that the first bit of your post is just
So do II love good design
But I consider designing for function and safety more important than designing for pleasant appearance
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Electric items involve some risk and we have to assess the risk and decide on a balance. As voltage increases the rick of electrocution increases and the risk of over heating and fire decreases and of course the climate also has an effect. In the UK we use a 55 - 0 - 55 volt system on building sites and the number of over heated leads found does point out the problems with 110 volts and with reduced low voltage also switches and sockets have to be larger. Coupled with the lower voltage also items like RCD's seem not to work as well.
To compare USA with Europe one has to consider all factors including history and USA has taken in general longer to become civilised than Europe we for example got rid of DC supplies in 1960's USA even in New York still had them in 2000 with some old buildings. They are have some odd earthing like the "hot wire" system where delta windings are on final of supply transformer.
Although we think of USA as being standard 110v system that's not the case and factories have quite a mixture of voltages there is no standard system. Many of the European electrical engineers went to USA in the early days as they did not have the same restrictive practices as Europe George Westinghouse, Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla fought the war of currents in the USA we over here learnt from the mistakes they made.
We also have a grid switch system were modules are used to build up sockets, switches and fuses with plates but it is more expensive than the all in one single, double and triple switch or single or double socket so not used so much.
As with USA we also have some history and after the second world war we had during the war developed a system to allow fast re-building of houses and using a universal power outlet system requiring less copper and other resources which was the ring final and 13A socket modern building restrictions does mean the ring final no longer has the advantage is did have but as a whole the system is much better than either USA or rest of Europe all down to history.
Some are now moving to radial circuits as this allows using more RCBO's so faults in one area do no affect the supply to other areas but this is more expensive.
Lights again are down to history pre-war there was a different tariff for lights and power lights being cheaper and it was illegal to use lighting supply for power. How much this influenced the design I don't know but unlike USA who supplied switches and from the switch supplied the light we supplied the light then connected a switch to each light and the ceiling rose was a multi purpose unit holding the pendent and acting as a junction box and because it is a junction box ratted at 5A it has in the main resulted in our lighting circuits being limited to 5 or 6 amp.
Again history comes in where originally we would likely have just 4 fuses lights, sockets, immersion and cooker and as we started to fit fancy light fittings we started to exceed the 6A limit. It was common to then split the lights into two to get the extra power required which in turn lead to problems with shared neutrals which two way lighting circuits. Again history we started to use RCD's on all circuits and to keep prices down we used just 2 RCD's and we would both split sockets and lights and cross the split so if one failed every room would still have either lights or sockets working.
This system expected any standard or table lights to be plugged into the sockets so if a RCD trips it will not result in no lights in any room. Here our ceiling rose system helps as emergency lights can easy be fitted as there is permanent power at the rose.
However because of the shared neutral problem when RCD were fitted often the lights had to be returned to a single breaker however this was at the same time as we had an energy saving push so 50W spot lights were being replaced with 5W LED units and 60W bulbs with 11W CFL units so in the main the power required had dropped again to within the 6A limit.
It is of course not a perfect world and electricians were some times faced with either major rewiring because of shared neutrals or fitting 10A trips instead. Often not strictly following rules but it was a quick fix and reduced costs for the house holder.
Clearly history has taken it's toll with your house and for what ever reason the 6A standard MCB has been upped to 10A not ideal but some times no real option. What is clearly required is to reduce the lighting power required bit by bit until under 6A when the correct size MCB can be refitted. This means really fitting extra standard or table lamps to the existing lighting circuit is a bad idea. Also if RCD protected coming from the sockets would mean less chance of being plunged into darkness should a RCD trip.
Using the grid switch system which you like from USA you can have sockets, fuses, and switches all on the same plate.
Not saying I like them but clearly can be got.
To compare USA with Europe one has to consider all factors including history and USA has taken in general longer to become civilised than Europe we for example got rid of DC supplies in 1960's USA even in New York still had them in 2000 with some old buildings. They are have some odd earthing like the "hot wire" system where delta windings are on final of supply transformer.
Although we think of USA as being standard 110v system that's not the case and factories have quite a mixture of voltages there is no standard system. Many of the European electrical engineers went to USA in the early days as they did not have the same restrictive practices as Europe George Westinghouse, Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla fought the war of currents in the USA we over here learnt from the mistakes they made.
We also have a grid switch system were modules are used to build up sockets, switches and fuses with plates but it is more expensive than the all in one single, double and triple switch or single or double socket so not used so much.
As with USA we also have some history and after the second world war we had during the war developed a system to allow fast re-building of houses and using a universal power outlet system requiring less copper and other resources which was the ring final and 13A socket modern building restrictions does mean the ring final no longer has the advantage is did have but as a whole the system is much better than either USA or rest of Europe all down to history.
Some are now moving to radial circuits as this allows using more RCBO's so faults in one area do no affect the supply to other areas but this is more expensive.
Lights again are down to history pre-war there was a different tariff for lights and power lights being cheaper and it was illegal to use lighting supply for power. How much this influenced the design I don't know but unlike USA who supplied switches and from the switch supplied the light we supplied the light then connected a switch to each light and the ceiling rose was a multi purpose unit holding the pendent and acting as a junction box and because it is a junction box ratted at 5A it has in the main resulted in our lighting circuits being limited to 5 or 6 amp.
Again history comes in where originally we would likely have just 4 fuses lights, sockets, immersion and cooker and as we started to fit fancy light fittings we started to exceed the 6A limit. It was common to then split the lights into two to get the extra power required which in turn lead to problems with shared neutrals which two way lighting circuits. Again history we started to use RCD's on all circuits and to keep prices down we used just 2 RCD's and we would both split sockets and lights and cross the split so if one failed every room would still have either lights or sockets working.
This system expected any standard or table lights to be plugged into the sockets so if a RCD trips it will not result in no lights in any room. Here our ceiling rose system helps as emergency lights can easy be fitted as there is permanent power at the rose.
However because of the shared neutral problem when RCD were fitted often the lights had to be returned to a single breaker however this was at the same time as we had an energy saving push so 50W spot lights were being replaced with 5W LED units and 60W bulbs with 11W CFL units so in the main the power required had dropped again to within the 6A limit.
It is of course not a perfect world and electricians were some times faced with either major rewiring because of shared neutrals or fitting 10A trips instead. Often not strictly following rules but it was a quick fix and reduced costs for the house holder.
Clearly history has taken it's toll with your house and for what ever reason the 6A standard MCB has been upped to 10A not ideal but some times no real option. What is clearly required is to reduce the lighting power required bit by bit until under 6A when the correct size MCB can be refitted. This means really fitting extra standard or table lamps to the existing lighting circuit is a bad idea. Also if RCD protected coming from the sockets would mean less chance of being plunged into darkness should a RCD trip.
Using the grid switch system which you like from USA you can have sockets, fuses, and switches all on the same plate.
Someone who realised that it was necessary to have opening and closing tags.
How would you have done it?
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